The following is an auto-generated transcript of the Brazn Azn podcast Episode 26. It also includes affiliate links that do not affect the price you pay, but allows me to recoup some of our costs. Please excuse any mistakes or misspellings as we do not have the time nor bandwidth to edit.
Show notes
In this episode of Brazn Azn, hosts Stella and Virginia dive deep into the complex world of risk-taking, exploring their personal experiences with calculated caution and unexpected leaps of faith. From early marriage to career choices and parenthood, they unpack the nuanced ways we define and navigate risk in our lives.
- Early marriage and its financial implications
- Pregnancy is a huge risk and not health neutral
- ADHD and impulsivity vs. calculated decision-making
- The myth of the risk-averse eldest child
- Balancing stability and adventure in relationships and careers
Listen to Brazn Azn Ep 26
Transcript
Stella: Hi, Brazen Nation. This is the Brazn Azn podcast. I’m your co-host Stella.
Virginia: And I’m your other co-host, Virginia Duan, also known as Mandarin Mama. I’m the entertainment editor for Mochi Magazine, the longest running Asian American Women’s Magazine online. I’m also a freelance writer as well as an author of two novels. If you like messy people, angst, found families, stories about recovering from trauma, sexy times all set in the backdrop of K-pop.
You might enjoy my books. They’re called “Illusive” and “Weightless,” so check ’em out.
Stella: Today we’re talking about taking risks and our complicated feelings about it. Dun,
You know, they say that eldest children tend to be the most risk averse.
Virginia: It’s so true.
Stella: Is that, do you feel like that’s true?
Virginia: Yeah. Well, you know what? I didn’t even ever think about it until my oldest started preschool. And because I feel like I’ve made risky decisions all my [00:01:00] life, so I was just like, what is this eldest children don’t make risky decisions? But then I met my oldest son and the preschool teacher at the time, this was like 12 years ago, and she said that every time they did a new activity, she could always tell who was the eldest because my son would hold back, observe everyone.
I mean, it could be like playing a game or doing hopscotch or something fun. It’s not even a scary thing, you know? And he would observe them do the activity maybe two or three times, and then he would play it. But he would never be like, let’s go do that. He would have to like, watch people first and then do it.
And it’s really interesting.
Stella: Yeah, I would say that track’s true for us too. Yeah. Like my oldest is risk averse. I’m the oldest child, I’m risk averse. My husband’s the oldest child and he’s also, I wouldn’t say he’s the most risk averse of his siblings, but he kind of is. Mm. He kind of is like, [00:02:00] yeah, we calculate a lot of things in our house, yeah.
Virginia: But it’s funny because I feel like my husband’s the youngest of three and I’m the oldest, and I would say I’m way more risk taking. I’m way, yeah. I take more risk than he does, but I also really hate instability, if that makes sense. So our biggest fights in the last 10 years were always related to instability.
Like if he wanted to quit his job, I. I would start a fight because I’d be like, you have, we have four children. What are you doing? And he’s like, why do you wanna be, why do you want me to be? So in certain instances when he is taking risks, I’m like, what the fuck is wrong with you? But I feel like day to day I am much riskier than he is, but I don’t know if it’s because I have that foundation of his stability,
if that makes sense.
Stella: Mm. Yeah. Yeah. Like you have, you know, that there’s something to fall back on, so it’s not as risky a thing. [00:03:00] Right. As someone who doesn’t have a safety net. Right, right. Do you feel like you’re more risk averse than your sibling?
Virginia: Well, he runs his own consulting company to the government.
So yes, I’m probably way more risk averse than he is.
And so maybe it’s like, maybe it’s what is, what is the word I’m thinking of?
Stella: Relative?
Yeah. Maybe it’s relative to families, right.
Virginia: Double pun. Double pun intended. Terrible. I know. I’m sorry. Not sorry. So yeah, maybe, but part of me wonders now because my brother is also ADHD, we highly suspect my father is, was, and we’ve just discovered that I am so, like how much of the risk taking that I’ve made done was just actually poor decision, like impulsivity, the inability to reign in my mouth.
Stella: Yeah. It, I mean, reigning in your impulsivity with ADHD is really, really hard as someone who has it. I feel like I’ve paid the price [00:04:00] many times over like when I start a new hobby. And the lesson that people keep telling me is like, take the class, don’t buy the supplies.
Virginia: That’s ridiculous,
Stella: but it’s this idea like don’t jump in with both feet thinking that this’ll be a sustainable hobby for you.
If it’s something you’re interested in, try it out with a class. Like make a smaller commitment. But my impulsivity is just like, no, I want all this. I want all the things.
Virginia: Yeah. What do you mean? I don’t need every single size knitting needle and crochet needle ever.
Stella: Yeah. And sometimes if you have ADHD, you lose said things and so you buy them a few times over
LOL sob.
Virginia: Let’s not talk about this anymore. This will just make me sad.
Stella: So I guess we should open up by talking about things that we’ve either done or haven’t done because of risk management.
Virginia: Oh. Oh.
Stella: Like I don’t think I’ve made [00:05:00] any risky decision except I have. There are some things where I’m like, oh yeah, no, I was taking a risk there.
But mostly I’m like, no, I’m very boring. Nothing risky.
Virginia: Boring.
I don’t think risk is the opposite of boring.
Right? Like cautious is the opposite of risk. Interesting. Is the opposite of boring, right? Like that’s so interesting that you say it that way.
Stella: No, I think what’s funny about it though is that I guess because I find myself to be pretty risk averse, I think that I don’t take opportunities. Oh, right. Where I’m like, oh, I don’t think I wanna do that.
Virginia: So can you like give a example that you’re comfortable with sharing?
Stella: I mean, even meeting new people, doing new things, I’m kind of like, no, I don’t really need to do that. So sometimes if my friends are inviting us out to new places, like somebody in the [00:06:00] group will be like, Hey, so this is a really good place to park.
Or when you go in, make sure you go up to the counter. We are all kind of in this place where we feel a little bit more comfortable if we know what’s gonna happen when we get to a new place.
Oh.
Which I kind of love, like, I love that a lot of people in my life are like, yeah, here’s, here’s the general vibe.
Here’s what you’ll probably wanna see or watch out for.
Virginia: Hmm. How much of that is introversion and anxiety though?
Stella: I mean, quite a few people in these groups are extroverts. I think they just realize that I’m a really anxious person. So they’re like, let me, let me care for you a little.
Virginia: That’s sweet though.
That’s very sweet.
Stella: Oh. And I wonder if some of this is also because of my executive functioning where I’m like, I don’t wanna commit more executive functioning to figuring out what to do in a new space. Mm-hmm. And so that’s maybe why I won’t take the risk. Like that’s my calculation is like, oh, that’s going to maybe take more executive functioning than I have.
In fact, I am [00:07:00] so leery of going out and doing things that sometimes the rule that my household has in place is if I’m meeting up with someone mm-hmm, or going to an event, I have to get completely ready to go before I decide to back out.
Virginia: Interesting.
Stella: Yeah, because then it’s like, oh, is it that I actually don’t feel comfortable going, or like, I don’t want to go through the process of having to get ready and then having to leave the house, having to drive. There’s just a lot of things there. And so one way sometimes that we overcome that is where you have to get ready, completely ready to get out the door and go before you decide this isn’t something you wanna do.
Virginia: Mm. That’s so interesting because I also hate doing those things, especially since that, a lot of events. I sometimes say yes to are in San Francisco and nothing is shittier than going to San Francisco, especially at night.
I’m glad I go. Not every time, but I [00:08:00] get the majority of the time.
Stella: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Virginia: But I think I end up going even when I don’t want to go because I have a high sense of obligation, if that makes sense.
Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. But I hate flaky people and I don’t wanna be a flaky person. Yeah. I might be a little bit late, but I’ll tell you I’m going to be late, you know? But I hate people who flake because it erodes trust and also you kind of screw other people over. Mm-hmm. Especially like some places have minimums Oh, yeah. For reservations
right. Like, and you’re just like, well, you just fucked us kind of thanks. So I very rarely cancel, and if I cancel, I usually cancel far enough ahead of time so people don’t feel bad, if that makes sense. As someone who has also planned events, it’s so anxiety inducing because you’re like, oh, what if no one shows up?
Mm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. [00:09:00] And. Yeah. And I just don’t want to be that person to cause someone else anxiety. Yeah. It’s funny how we each cope with how to be in someplace, right?
Stella: But there’s riskier things that we’ve done or chosen not to do other than leaving our houses.
Like for me, I’m like, oh yes. Risky behavior leaving my house.
And it’s kind of funny, when we were talking about doing this episode, you mentioned me getting married this early. Yeah. It seems like a really risky thing to do. And I don’t remember it feeling that way when we chose to do it.
Virginia: So for context, everyone Stella got married at like five. No, I’m just kidding.
That would be illegal. She got married really young. Like before you graduated college or right after?
Stella: Before, yeah, because I took, I took the last two quarters off to plan our wedding and then finished after. That’s, I know my parents were like, what is [00:10:00] happening? I honestly was like, maybe I just don’t wanna finish college.
And my parents and my husband were like, you have six classes left, please just finish your degree.
So my husband and I started dating when I was 21. Oh yeah. And we got engaged basically six months after we started dating. But he knew I would say yes when he asked.
’cause I was like, I’m not gonna date somebody. I don’t see myself potentially marrying. Okay. Yeah, I was just like, there’s just no point. And the other thing that really shocks people is they’re like, well, did you date a lot of people before this? And I’m like, no. He’s actually the first boyfriend I had in college.
Oh. And I stopped dating my sophomore year of high school.
Virginia: Isn’t that when most people start dating? Yeah,
Stella: that’s when I stopped. Sorry, Stella. I know people are like, so you stopped dating at like 16? Met a man, and I met him when I was probably 19 or 20
Mm.
[00:11:00] Met a dude, started dating him when I was 21, and then a year later we were married.
Virginia: Okay. Well, it’s not as bad when you clarify and give context that you knew him prior to dating him. Yeah. It’s not like you met a stranger. And then,
Stella: I mean, which people do, right? Like, which people do.
Virginia: Which I would never
Stella: and like we didn’t live together before we were married, so a lot of people, particularly, so we were very young evangelicals at the time, but people who were not evangelical, who were in my life are like, what the fuck is going on?
I remember his family being really shocked. I think his brothers were really surprised. Mm. Mm-hmm. They’re like, why would you marry someone before you’ve lived together for a while and been together for some time? Right.
Virginia: What if you’re incredibly incompatible in multiple ways?
Stella: Yeah. Right.
So it was, it was a huge risk. I just didn’t feel like it was at the time. Yeah. [00:12:00]
Virginia: I mean, marriage is super risky. Like not just your physical body, but your finances, credit score, children.
Stella: I was gonna say. Yeah. Yeah.
Virginia: It just compounds so many things.
Stella: And women are typically at a major disadvantage Yes.
When leaving a marriage. Yeah. Yes. Yes. And my parents were like, if it doesn’t work out, you can always come home. Oh. And at the time I was like, that’s very sweet, but like, do you think this isn’t gonna work out? But now that I am like 20 years in, I’m like, oh, yes. I see why they were trying so hard to let me know.
Mm-hmm. That there’s always a place I could come back to in case I needed it.
Virginia: Oh, I wanna cry. That’s sweet. I feel like too many parents just say, yeah, you know, you fucked around. Now you find out.
Sorry.
Stella: I know, right? It’s so sad. I’m really glad that both my parents and my in-laws are definitely the kind of people to be like, you can always come back [00:13:00] home.
Virginia: Mm-hmm. Yeah. I hope that’s the type of parent my children experience. Just because I wanna be that doesn’t mean that that’s what they experience.
Stella: No. I’m sure your children know that if anything goes wrong, they can come back home.
It’s interesting that I didn’t think of it as risky at the time.
Virginia: Mm-hmm.
Stella: And now that I’m like, oh yes, I would not watch someone else do that and feel like it was a good idea. But are there places in your life where you feel like everyone else is like, oh, this is kind of risky, and you’re like, no, no.
I’ve calculated it. It’ll be fine.
Virginia: Yeah. I mean, I feel like anytime someone says, oh, you’re so brave for doing that. And people say that to me a lot about the topics I talk about or write about. Mm-hmm. Even publishing books and stuff, they’re like, oh, that’s so risky. You’re so emotionally risky.
Right. Or you’re opening up your, yourself up to risk from the internet. I’ve been doxed, you know, I’ve gotten [00:14:00] my fair share of hate and death threats and rape threats and
Stella: Yeah. For those who don’t know, Virginia has a lot of haters. They really don’t like the fact that she speaks her mind.
So people are telling you this feels really brave, really risky.
Virginia: Yeah, but I don’t see it as that. I kind of overshare. The things that I feel vulnerable about, I don’t talk about. So you wouldn’t know because I wouldn’t talk about it and people are like, oh, it’s so risky to, to change your career or to do this. And I’m like, how is it risky? My husband works full-time, has a good job, and can pay for everything. What’s the risk here?
And so a lot of times people are like, oh, I wish I was brave like you, or I wish I was as much of a risk taker as you. And I was like, you are in a completely different financial situation or parenting situation. Like you cannot compare [00:15:00] my easy life to your hard one?
Like, that’s not fair to them at all. I would never do something that would hurt us financially, because I love money, everyone. I love money, and by I love money, I mean, I love financial stability, and also I love merch. So the way to get those things is still love money. Okay,
Stella: So Chinese
Virginia: It is. It is
Stella: So Chinese.
Virginia: So I don’t consider it risky because it doesn’t really hurt us.
Stella: But I bet a lot of people would say choosing to be a housewife or a stay-at-home mom in today’s climate is a really risky thing.
Virginia: Oh, yeah. So stupid.
Stella: Yeah. Like when I talk to some women who have planned their careers really carefully mm-hmm and have planned for financial independence, regardless of their marital status, they’re like, why would you risk this? So they ask me questions like, do you have a separate 401k? Do you guys have life insurance?
Like, what are you gonna [00:16:00] do? Because they’re so concerned that I’m taking this massive financial risk. Mm-hmm. And they’re right. I am. Mm-hmm. It doesn’t feel risky, but I think a lot of people would say that a situation they’re in doesn’t feel risky or problematic to them at the moment. Mm-hmm. And everyone else around them is like, oh, this is a bad idea.
Virginia: So this is where, even though I hated my job as a financial advisor, my job as a financial advisor was very useful. Because I always made sure I maxed out my 401Ks. I have my own investment accounts. At least in California, whatever you had prior to getting married, as long as you keep them always separate and you don’t commingle funds in a divorce
Stella: they stay yours.
Virginia: Yeah, they stay yours. Yeah. Any inheritance is yours as long as you don’t co-mingle. That’s the key. Right. And so because of that and because I knew I was financially vulnerable, I make sure we max out. Also my husband, I want him to max it out too [00:17:00] because Yeah. Should, should we get a divorce on one half and then I’m entitled to half.
Right. So we max out all our retirement stuff. I make sure that I have a lot of insurance on him, because I know that if something happened to him, I don’t want to marry the first gross, rich white guy to come along to get me outta the situation because I have a lifestyle to which I’m accustomed. So I’m like, yeah, this is the amount.
We also have a policy on me because I provide a lot of unpaid labor.
Stella: Yeah.
Virginia: So if I died, then he would have to pay for childcare because he has to work.
For the longest time I was in charge of all our finances. In that sense, I’ve tried to mitigate as much risk as possible in terms of money, but that of course, you can’t really mitigate the risk of, of not working for 15 years.
Stella: Yeah. The gap in my resume is significant.
Virginia: I mean, you could fudge it, right? Like you said, you could be a teacher for X amount of years.
Stella: I mean, it’s, you can play pretty fast and [00:18:00] loose with a lot of things.
Yeah. So why people’s LinkedIn profiles look the way they do?
Virginia: Oh my God. It’s ridiculous.
If you think about it though, us getting pregnant so many times and carrying them to term, that was pretty fucking risky. That’s probably the riskiest thing to our health. Prior to me having children, I thought pregnancy was a health neutral event.
Stella: Right. Eventually you go back to your state before you were pregnant.
Virginia: Yeah. Like, it’s just, it’s like a blip, you know? It’s like having a cold before, like nine months.
Stella: Inaccurate, friends.
Virginia: It’s not true. It’s not true at all.
Stella: No. And there’s a lot of evidence that pregnancy changes your brain permanently.
Virginia: I think it snips certain things in your brain, so you do actually lose gray matter, I guess, or something. But the reason is so that you can focus on a tiny human and read cues.
Stella: It was ineffective in my case. They needed to snip a lot more gray matter because I’m like, I am really [00:19:00] bad at coping with tiny humans. But yes, I would say my third pregnancy was by far my riskiest, although my first two were also somewhat risky. Like I was on bedrest with my second.
Virginia: Oh gosh. How did you do that with a toddler?
Stella: I don’t remember. I think I was in bed a lot and my oldest would just bring toys and books to me and we would hang out.
Oh
Yeah. But, but also my oldest was a pretty easy toddler. My youngest is a very, like, I would not be able to be on bedrest with this toddler.
Virginia: Yeah. They get more feral.
Stella: They do
Virginia: The more children you have. But yeah, I would say probably the hugest risk I ever took was have five children.
Stella: Rolling the dice every time. Yeah.
And I guess that’s something that people worry about a lot. Like, should I have kids? Should I [00:20:00] have more kids? I’ve always said to my husband, what if we roll the dice and this one turns out to be an asshole? Like, I’d rather not risk it.
Well, yes, having children, massive risk, marrying early and not achieving financial independence before getting married, like my case, big risk.
Virginia: I mean, it’s difficult to achieve financial independence if you get married so early, right? Because most of us don’t accrue — that’s like your lowest earning years, right? Your peak earning years are what? Forties?
Stella: Yeah. I’m missing out on this too.
Virginia: Yeah, well same.
Stella: Are there any risks you wish you had taken or that you are hoping to take in the future? I.
Virginia: So every time I say this, people are appalled. But I really wish I was sluttier not to slut shame, but I really wish that I had taken more risks in that sense.
Stella: You missed out on having a THOT phase.
Virginia: In retrospect probably better, but I feel like I was [00:21:00] more regretful about this five or six years ago. I’m less regretting it now. But only ’cause I think I’m so tired.
Stella: Children will do that to you. Right. Particularly young ones.
Virginia: Yeah. And I’m just like, well, sex– men just really aren’t that great.
Stella: So Yeah. I guess you wouldn’t want to
Virginia: Yeah. Five or six years ago, that was one of my hugest regrets. Like, I should have just been more of a hoe. And I realized that can be risky behavior. So a lot of it is also because like when I’m plotting novels I’m just like, how do you make sure you’re safe?
If you go to their house, how you, you know what I mean? What if they hurt you?
Stella: Keep a taser on you, right?
Virginia: But if you’re at your house, then, then they make your home unsafe.
Stella: This is why people meet at hotels, right?
Virginia: Oh God. But then that’s so much, that’s financially stupid. And I have a bed at home.
If it [00:22:00] was just me as a young adult not knowing, not having the perspective I have now, I regret not doing it that way. Like I regret not being more adventurous, but as a middle aged person now, and I think of all the risks that involves, and maybe dating is just different now than it was, but I don’t know if it’s that different.
Stella: I don’t think we’d survive internet dating. Oh, babe. I don’t think we’d survive dating apps.
Virginia: No, no, no.
I’m not saying that I couldn’t pull people just from pictures, but I have five children. I really feel like that is a big negative.
Stella: Yes. And in your case, it would be men that you would have to deal with. Oh. Whereas in my case Oh, true. I think, I think straight, cis straight men would be like the bottom of my list. We joke all the time. My husband and I joke all the time that he was cis straight men’s last shot with me. So I’m glad I picked a good one.
I’m glad I [00:23:00] picked a good one. Yeah. If he, if he was gonna be the last one that I,
Virginia: Yeah. So I think if this question was like five or six years ago, that would be my like biggest regret. But now men have just degraded.
Stella: Why are men?
Virginia: Yeah.
Stella: Apologies to men. But also why are you guys like this?
Virginia: Yeah. Like I don’t, obviously I know plenty of good men.
Stella: Same. Same.
Virginia: I wouldn’t be friends with them if they were not Right. And I’d like to think the majority of men are not this way, but
Stella: When the bar is in hell and all the men are just ordering whiskey shots, it means that men don’t have any incentive to do more than just clear the bar. Yes. Right.
Virginia: Yeah. So that’s why I would say that is no longer something I regret.
Stella: That’s interesting. When I think about things I could potentially regret, I realize I [00:24:00] would have to have been a different person. I. Back then. Mm-hmm. In order to take those risks.
Virginia: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah.
Stella: So sometimes people ask, oh, do you regret not dating women, you know, before you got married? Or like, what do you think would be different? And I’m like, I would have to have been a different person. I would’ve have to have known things about myself mm-hmm. At a really early age.
Yeah.
Because I got married so young.
Virginia: Yeah. I would’ve had completely different parents.
Stella: Right, right.
Virginia: Like a non-abusive father. That’s what I would’ve had to have.
Stella: LOL sob.
Virginia: Yeah. Right.
Stella: I’m thinking about risks that I regret not taking.
Mm-hmm.
And I think a lot of people would probably put stuff like not being adventurous, not traveling more.
Mm-hmm. Spending more time with people or whatever it is. But I’m like, I would have to have been a different person to have made different choices. Yeah. Yeah. And I don’t think I could have been anybody [00:25:00] else. Right.
Virginia: Now that we’re talking about this, I do regret I wasn’t more transactional.
Stella: Ooh.
Virginia: And I don’t mean it in a, like, shitty way, even though it sounds shitty. I really regret minimizing myself.
Stella: Oh. Oh, that’s a good one.
Virginia: And it, it doesn’t sound like that’s a risky thing, but it is because if I talked about myself, the way my friends or people who believe in me talked about myself, I would be so afraid, which a lot of people find surprising, but I think part of me, it’s like how it took a long time for me to say I’m a writer.
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Or it took a long time for me to like to say I’m the entertainment editor for Mochi Magazine. Because all I could think was that people would be like, oh, well, you’re just a volunteer, or, oh, well, you’re really actually just a stay at home mom.
Stella: Which is [00:26:00] inaccurate. You are writing, you are the entertainment editor. Right. Those are legitimate facts.
Virginia: Right, right. And also, I am also a stay at home mom, right?
Stella: Yes. Correct.
Virginia: I think I was just afraid of naming what I was, because it didn’t match how I felt inside. Mm. And so I allowed people to dismiss me. Mm-hmm. Because I wasn’t useful to them.
Stella: Right. Right.
Virginia: Because I didn’t have the power or access, but I actually do have a lot of access and power. I have a pretty big network and people repeatedly say, I can’t believe you know this person, or I can’t believe you know so many people. Or, oh, you know, everyone, which I don’t. It’s a function of being old and having jobs in multiple industries.
Right? Like five or six industries and age.
Stella: But also being an extrovert.
Virginia: Yes, yes. And yeah. So I think that’s what I regret. I regret not accepting,
Stella: Not believing in your own hype. Yeah. [00:27:00] Because you kind of should have, right? Like Right. Yeah. I still don’t believe in my own hype. So I guess that’s a regret I could have.
I joke a lot about that I fly under the banner of aggressive mediocrity, because the reality is if you keep people’s expectations really low mm-hmm. It’s hard to fail them. Yes. Yeah. Yes. And so I am forever keeping everybody’s expectations really low.
Virginia: I mean, it’s good to temper people’s expectations. Right. But this last year or two, I think I always saw it as transactional, but now I see it as connecting people I care about to each other. And I think part of it is it just took time for me to grow, to get settled with a descriptor.
Like, oh, it’s been like six or seven years, so I’m used to it now. Right. I’ve said it enough [00:28:00] that it kind of doesn’t feel stupid.
Stella: Yeah. Like you’ve, you’ve pushed back the Imposter Syndrome enough that it’s sunk in maybe.
Virginia: Yeah. I’ve also done enough so it doesn’t feel impostery. I guess the risk here is all perceived, right? It’s not actual risk, you know, the risk that someone’s gonna say like, actually, you really
don’t belong here.
Stella: And what’s wild is if that actually happened, you might just say, fuck you.
Virginia: I don’t know. I don’t know if I actually am that spicy, confrontational in person.
Stella: You know, I would say I’m absolutely not. And I would think that a lot of people who know me in person would disagree with me.
Virginia: Okay. So maybe, I dunno, but the whole reason why we got started on this topic was because you were mentioning something about your fear of regret is not more [00:29:00] than your fear of failure. Could you tell us a little bit more about what you mean by that?
Stella: So when we started talking about this episode, and I joked with you that right now I am not taking risks creatively, honestly. Mm-hmm. And we recently did our episode with GKO and he’s taken some really big creative risks and job risks. Mm-hmm. You know, in the past five or 10 years. And you and I both know a lot of people who are putting themselves out there. It’s this risky endeavor of putting your art out there and doing what you love and mm-hmm.
All of these things. And so I started asking myself in my mind like, what, what is stopping me from doing any of these things? Mm-hmm. And the conclusion I came to is that currently my fear of regret is not larger than my fear of failure or fear of risk taking. Mm. ‘Cause people ask all the time, like, what are you waiting on?
I think you asked me this too, like, [00:30:00] what are you waiting on? Yeah.
Virginia: I’m so sorry.
Stella: No, and they, it’s never meant like with an ill intention. Mm. But I do think that people in my life are like, you could do so much more than you are right now. And I get it. I get why they’re saying what they are.
Mm-hmm.
And honestly, I think the real conclusion is I am more afraid of investing time and it not being worth it than I am afraid of regretting not taking the chance for now.
I’m sure eventually the scale will shift and I will become more scared that I’m losing out on something. But the other thing. That comes to mind is the fact that it shouldn’t matter if I’m investing time and it doesn’t pan out the way that I want because maybe I’ll discover something else while I’m working on it.
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Right? Like art doesn’t have to be good in order to be [00:31:00] made
Virginia: True. That explains so much of what my children do.
Stella: Right. Like sometimes just creating things is the important part. Yes. Sometimes it’s the process and honestly, no. I don’t know if I wanna say this, but honestly I probably have a better shot than a lot of other people who want to do something like write full time.
Virginia: It’s true. Yeah. You should totally say that because it’s true. So several thoughts if you’re open to them.
Stella: Oh yeah. No, we love it.
Virginia: So I feel like a huge shift in my thinking about this kind of stuff happened in my early twenties from a Cosmo article of all things. I know, but it’s so formative.
And I, I think I used to be a very jealous person. I’d be like, I have a better voice than this person. I’m smarter than this person. [00:32:00] How come they get chosen for solos, even though I have also been chosen for solos? But how come they got chosen, but I did not. Or how come? Yeah. So, and I realized after this article that, okay, if I’m jealous, it’s probably ’cause I want something that they have.
Right? And so if I want something that they have, I have several options. One is I can keep being jealous. Which is not a good feeling. If you’ve ever been jealous of someone, you just feel kind of shitty. And I don’t wanna be a hateful person. I don’t wanna be a hater for no reason, right?
Yeah,
I don’t mind hating people because they deserve to be hated. But just because someone is a good singer and I didn’t get chosen, it’s not a good reason I feel to hate somebody. If they were also an asshole. Sure. Good reason. And so then I have a choice. If I don’t want to be jealous, I can go after what I am jealous about or I can let it go.
And if I go after what I want, and I’m worried about failure, several things can happen. One, I go after [00:33:00] it or I’d learn more about how to get it. And I think, actually that sounds terrible.
Stella: I don’t want this anymore.
Virginia: Right? Like, yeah, it’s really cool to be a fighter pilot, but I don’t actually wanna be responsible for this machine in the air, and then if I find out that I don’t want it after all, that’s fantastic because yeah, now I don’t have to be jealous. I could be happy for this person, and two, I can let it go. But if I find that after I read all this stuff or do research that I still want it, I can either say, do I want it enough to do these things?
Do I want it enough to do it later? Or do I wanna enough to do it now? And then if, if, if I do it now and then I find out while doing it that I don’t want to do it, or I suck at it and I’m not willing to suck until I get good, then that’s also useful and helpful to me, because again, [00:34:00] I can let it go.
There’s so many things in the world that you can go after, it’s great to just know that door is closed, I don’t want that. But then what if in the process as I’m chasing this thing, I get good at it, or I really like it and I get better at it,
Stella: and then you publish two books, right?
Virginia: And so then now I have what I was jealous about another person, but now it’s mine. So it’s been 20 something years since then, but I feel like that has changed my approach in life. Do I apply it well equally in all areas of my life?
No, but I feel it has helped in the risk taking department that people perceive as risky.
Stella: It seems like we’re talking a little bit more about regrets in some ways than just risk taking, because I feel like they’re, like, they’re kind of paired, right?
Virginia: Yeah. Because I feel like risk implies investment
Stella: and some people don’t do things without like an ROI like a return on investment.[00:35:00]
Virginia: Hmm.
I guess I’m not really a huge risk taker, so all the risks that I do take are calculated that way.
Stella: I mean, I, I think that’s also the place I land in where I’m like, I’m not completely risk averse. I just wanna know what’s the math? Right. And it’s, I married a math guy, so it’s great. I we can, we can sit down and quantify a lot of things.
Virginia: Yeah, yeah.
But I, I think it’s good to talk about small risks. Hmm. Like to me it feels like a small risk, but I guess when I was doing it, it felt like a big risk but even like, I went to this art seminar thing called like the Dream State, a few weeks ago, and part of the program was they made us do grounding exercises like breathing and [00:36:00] meditation types of things, which I despise.
Stella: Could be the ADHD.
Virginia: Like, yeah.
I’m like, oh, Jesus Christ. Why? Why? Why did we spend 20 minutes breathing? I breathe every day,
Stella: all day long, all day long. You breathe in your sleep. I mean,
Virginia: Or like they did improv exercises like, and so my friend Jeff Harry, he does all these play exercises and I despise them.
But I do them because I love him. So if I go to support him, I will do it, but I hate it the entire time. And so those feel like risk. I hate play in that sense of that’s the type of play I do not enjoy ,because I feel stupid and I feel like it’s those little risks of feeling stupid that kind of slowly. Change you to the life you want.
Stella: Agree. I think sometimes the risk is in trying new things and they say it’s really important for us [00:37:00] as humans to keep trying new things.
Virginia: Oh, like brain elasticity?
Stella: Yeah. Keep trying new things, keep learning new things. Keep reminding yourself that the world is so much bigger and that it is, there is a risk, there is a risk in investing time or money or feeling stupid, trying something new, being bad at it.
Mm-hmm.
But I also think it means that maybe you become a little less afraid
mm-hmm. Of new things.
Virginia: Yeah. It reminds me of what Ophelia said on her episode with us about why she’s taking the painting class, right?
Mm-hmm. Like, mm-hmm.
Stella: When I think about what people’s top regrets probably are as they get older, I imagine it’s stuff like not spending time with loved ones or not traveling, not experiencing the world. And I think there is a really big part of us as people that really desires to connect in a meaningful way, whether that’s through making something or traveling.
Mm-hmm. [00:38:00] Making time to be with friends and family, whatever it is. And so maybe it’s good for me to take more risks to invest time into those things. Yeah. ’cause I’m not taking other risks. Like, I’m not going bungee jumping.
Virginia: Oh no.
Stella: I will not be jumping out of a plane anytime soon.
Virginia: No.
Stella: Like, I’m not a thrill seeker.
Virginia: No.
I used to be.
Stella: I’m not a thrill seeker.
Virginia: I used to be, and then I had a child, and then I was like, I guess I’m not doing that anymore. But you, you took a big risk doing this podcast with us though.
Stella: Yes. And I really, I, I’m convinced that like the only reason this happened was because you were like, but we’ll waste the hours.
Virginia: I know.
Stella: And I was like, oh, no. We can’t do that. And I out,
Virginia: I out-Asianed you.
Stella: You did. And I’ve always wanted a podcast.
Virginia: I know
Stella: Right. But I was like, I’m not gonna do that alone. And I was like, well, Virginia and I could talk forever about [00:39:00] anything, so. Exactly. And we know so many people.
Virginia: We do. We do. And so I feel like you’ve taken risks that way, you know?
Stella: And it’s been so rewarding.
Virginia: Yay. It’s been so great for me.
Stella: So there’s some evidence that like there’s risks and you can get regrets or rewards. Sometimes it’s both.
Virginia: Yes. Yes.
Stella: Like having children is a huge risk.
Mm. There is a huge reward. But there’s sometimes regrets too, right?
Virginia: For me personally, I’m not saying every person who has a child does not experience this, but I don’t regret people, I don’t regret them as people.
Stella: Yeah.
Right. I don’t regret having my kids.
Virginia: Right. But I do regret opportunity costs. Right, right. The costs of that. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, I guess it was risky for me to get diagnosed for ADHD.
Stella: I was [00:40:00] gonna say there’s also like, there, that’s also something new because for the entire first season we were like ADHD adjacent.
Because you did, you did put in some research, you did put in some time into trying to figure out if you had ADHD or not, and it just didn’t feel like it fit for a long time.
Virginia: Mm-hmm. Because I think I know so many people with ADHD
Stella: Birds of a feather. I’m telling you. I guess it’s how I realized I was queer.
Virginia: I love how long, long time listeners are like, there they go again. They should take a shot every time we reference these things.
Stella: Anytime Stella rants about capitalism. Take a shot.
Virginia: There you go.
Stella: You know what to tie it in though. Oh, to tie in capitalism. I do think that there is a part of our cultural understanding about risk that is kind of fixated on this idea of productivity.
Oh. And I definitely experience it. Do I wanna invest time into like trying to write things only for it to not go anywhere? Which is Oh, yeah. Yeah. Which is silly, right? [00:41:00] Because I’m not writing these things for it to go anywhere. I’m writing it because I feel like writing.
Virginia: Yeah. And also it’s nice to be, I think it’s because the financial reward is symbolic of people wanting your work.
Stella: Mm. That’s a good point. A good point.
Virginia: You know, because you don’t, yes. I mean, I create art for myself.
Yes. But also, no. Okay.
Stella: But who wouldn’t want Brandon Sanderson’s career?
Virginia: Right?
Stella: Didn’t that man like break Kickstarter?
Virginia: I think Yeah, he did. Yeah.
Stella: So, to sum it up, we think people should take risks. Just not really risky ones.
Virginia: I feel like there’s a difference between recklessness and calculated risks. Right? True, true. And some risks feel bigger than they are, like starting a podcast. And some risks we minimize like childbearing, having children, raising [00:42:00] children, being a woman, being a stay home mom, getting married.
Like all these like
Stella: At 22?
Virginia: Right. Or at all. A lot of it is just perspective. I feel like risk and how we see it is influenced by how individualistic or collectivists our perspective is.
Stella: I think that’s so true. It it’s heavily impacted by what you’ve been taught to believe about what’s worth risking. Mm-hmm. What’s worth doing? What’s important.
Virginia: Yeah. And I wonder sometimes whether it’s our Asian American collectivist background of us not taking risks on ourselves like that
Stella: And that we don’t have a lot of models for it in mainstream media.
Our stories are not front and center, our narratives are not told. And so it makes sense that we don’t see that a lot and a lot of us, not all of us, but certainly a lot of us are the [00:43:00] children of immigrants. And that’s a different kind of calculus. Like what you can risk as someone who’s immigrating to another country is a very different thing.
Virginia: Mm-hmm. And that’s what’s so hilarious to me. I feel like, oh, a lot of our immigrant parents are really risk averse, but they took a huge fucking risk to leave everything they knew to whole fucking different country, maybe in a language that they do not speak very well. And then to have audacity to tell us not to take a risk, but but sort of like,
Stella: But they used up all that risk.
Virginia: Yeah.
Stella: Yeah.
Virginia: Or sometimes it’s like, I made this huge risk so that you could have a bit better life, so you better not fuck up my risk with your risks,
Stella: Which is like fair, but also not
Virginia: Right. Anyway,
Stella: I will say as a woman, I do think I have a much better time as an American than I would’ve as a Korean, especially at my age.
Virginia: [00:44:00] Yeah,
Stella: Korea has a lot of things going for it, but the sexism there is wild.
Virginia: Yeah. Oh, I mean, I would even say in taiwan too, but
Stella: All of East Asia. All of East Asia, yeah. Probably all of Asia, honestly, but I would say specifically East Asia.
Virginia: I will say that the West, or at least in America, gives you the perception that women are freer, but it’s really just, I mean, yes and no.
Stella: Freedom is an illusion, right? This idea that any of us are actually free is an illusion, in my opinion.
Virginia: Like sometimes I feel like it’s more frustrating to be a woman in America in one sense because there’s so much lip service and you expect it, but it’s actually, no, that’s not true.
Stella: Right? Like you can really see the glass ceiling, like you’re right up [00:45:00] against it. I have a friend who jokes that she hates being in second place more than third because if you’re in second, you know how close you were to first. Oh. Whereas in third, you know that you didn’t have a shot.
Virginia: Oh, I mean, unless they’re like microseconds, like they are in running.
Stella: So Brazen Nation, we’d love to know what you all think about this. We’d love to encourage you all to think a little bit about the risks you’ve taken and if there’s any risks you wanna take, we wanna hear from you about it.
So yes, please email Virginia
Virginia: DM me
Stella: We do have a blue sky count, so if you guys wanna tag us there, we’re there under brazen Asian.
Virginia: Oh. We also have IG and Threads.
Stella: That was the episode. I was your co-host, Stella,
Virginia: and I’m your co-host, Virginia. Bye.
