The following is an auto-generated transcript of the Brazn Azn podcast Episode 26. It also includes affiliate links that do not affect the price you pay, but allows me to recoup some of our costs. Please excuse any mistakes or misspellings as we do not have the time nor bandwidth to edit.
Show Notes
Join hosts Stella and Virginia as they chat with author Thien-Kim Lam about her latest novel “Something Cheeky” and explore:
- The evolution of Asian American representation in romance literature
- Writing authentic, diverse characters and relationships
- Balancing cultural specificity with universal themes
- The importance of found family and community in storytelling
- Challenging stereotypes and creating sex-positive narratives
Follow Thien-Kim Lam on her site and Instagram, and check out her book “Something Cheeky.”
Listen to Brazn Azn Ep 27
Transcript
Stella: Hello, Brazen Nation. This is the Brazn Azn podcast. I’m your co-host Stella.
Virginia: And I’m your other cohost, Virginia Duan, also known as Mandarin Mama. I’m the entertainment editor for Mochi Magazine, which is the longest running online Asian American Women’s magazine. I’m a freelance writer and also an author. I have two books out right now and if you like, stories about messy people, people that were recovering from trauma, found families, sexy times all set in a K-pop background, these are the books for you. So check out “Illusive” and “Weightless,” in Amazon or bookshop.org.
Stella: Today we’re talking to Thien-Kim Lam. She writes stories about Vietnamese characters who smash stereotypes and find their happy endings.
She’s a recovering Type-A Asian, she guzzles cà phê sữa đá, makes art and bakes her feelings to stay sane. She’s also a book coach and an EDSE certified sex educator and the founder of Bawdy [00:01:00] Bookworms, which is a subscription box that pairs sexy romances with erotic toys.
We’re talking to Thien-Kim today about the latest book in her series, “Something Cheeky,” which released back in March.
Hi Thien-Kim.
Thien-Kim: Hello. I’m really happy to be here. Yay.
Virginia: So full disclosure, I’ve known Thien-Kim from blogging, I guess, way back.
Thien-Kim: So long. I tried to do the math and I don’t remember when I met Virginia. So we’re just gonna say OG Blogger.
Virginia: At least 10 or 11 years ago. Yeah, so I’ve followed her career. She was one of the first few people that I saw actively pursue becoming an author.
Obviously I knew Asian Americans could be writers ’cause Amy Tan. But I was like, oh, I didn’t know asians like me could be a writer.
Thien-Kim: Right. We could write fun books and not serious, yeah, you know, literature, which is also important.
Virginia: [00:02:00] But Yeah. Yeah. But I was like, I didn’t know we could write romances.
I didn’t know we could write fun, sexy things. So Thien-Kim’s been a huge influence on my journey as a writer. I’m very excited to have you here with us today.
Stella: I was just gonna ask Thien-Kim to tell us a little bit about her new book, “Something Cheeky”?
Thien-Kim: ” Something Cheeky” is the third book in the Boss Babe series where each book features a heroine who is working in a sex positive industry.
And Zoe Tran is a plus-size lingerie designer and has her own boutique called Something Cheeky, and I said it in the DC area. So DMV for people who live here. And her store is in Eden Center, which is a historic Vietnamese shopping center in Northern Virginia, right outside of Washington, DC. And it’s friends to lovers, so her best friend from college comes into town and says, Hey, you remember that show about the Vietnamese Cinderella we used to dream cast, like it’s about to be a the real thing. I want you to [00:03:00] come and design the costumes for it, because they were in a theater program together before she dropped out.
And this is where they start working together a lot. And he’s always had a thing for her, but he was too scared to tell her. And then she starts to grow feelings for him as well. And then while they’re all doing that, there’s this challenge by the theater to make the show more appealing by whitewashing some elements.
So they’re fighting creatively but not so much in the bedroom.
Virginia: I love it. I love it.
Stella: One of my favorite quotes from this book, which I think sums a lot of it up, is mm-hmm. “We’re gonna make this show so fucking Asian that people will either love it or hate it. No. In between.”
Virginia: Yes. That’s my favorite line also.
Thien-Kim: That’s what I told myself when I wrote this book because when I first started, I was so scared and I was just dancing around some of the issues and I said, you know what?
I’m gonna go for it and just make it as Asian as I can. The story calls for it and if they don’t get what I’m trying to do, then fuck them. They’re not the right person [00:04:00] for this book.
Stella: It’s so unapologetically Asian American and I think very Vietnamese American, which I find really amazing ’cause there aren’t a lot of books with Vietnamese American protagonists. Mm-hmm.
Thien-Kim: No, that’s really one of the main reasons I started writing. And my first two books are interracial. One, because I’m in an interracial relationship. But also I wasn’t sure if I could sell a book with two Vietnamese main characters, which is why it took me the third book to get there.
Virginia: Oh, I was gonna ask about that. When we were reading it, I was just like, Stella, this book is so Asian. Like, so Asian. And obviously you don’t have to be Asian to get it or to understand it or to love it, but I just love the specificity of it. You discuss so many issues that we as the Asian diaspora have to deal with, but you do it in a way without it being like heavy or like preachy or afternoon specially.
But you totally address things head on. You tackle them, but you [00:05:00] do it with such grace and like lightness and it’s just so beautiful to read.
Thien-Kim: I had such a great time. I need to put a Virginia in my pocket and carry you around.
Stella: Yeah, do it.
Thien-Kim: I approach it like how we approach life, right?
Like we’re living, especially right now, we’re living in really tough times. It’s tough to be Asian, it’s tough to be queer. But we still have to find joy. That’s how I approached the story. Like, yeah, you’re living through all these things, but you can’t, I mean some people do, but you don’t want to sit there in the corner and cry the whole time ’cause that’s not a great way to live.
So you gotta find the people that are there for you and find ways to make life move a little bit easier.
Stella: I was gonna say, I love that this book is so unapologetically Asian American, but it’s not about becoming Asian American. Yes. The characters are already just Asian American and they’re navigating all of these really challenging but also exciting things in their life.
And so I was just like, yes, [00:06:00] we love all these. If you know, you know, moments.
Thien-Kim: Oh good. You know, I did think about it that way ’cause I thought, well if people dunno stuff, they can Google it. Google can tell you pretty much like anything you’re looking for now, or find some more Asian friends and ask them.
Virginia: And I love how it’s so rooted, like not just in them being Vietnamese or multiple Asian characters or queerness, it’s so rooted in the DMV itself. I have family who lives there, and I was like, oh, I know exactly Seven Corners. I know Falls Church. It’s a specificity of place. Your characters are so real and embodied. I know people like this, or I am like this, and a lot of times Asian things, like media or stories, they have to hit certain Asian stereotypes and yours doesn’t do that at all. These are real people. They’re not cardboard cutouts of what somebody’s idea of what it means to be Vietnamese American. They, they just are [00:07:00] people who happen to be Vietnamese American and that informs their experiences.
Stella: Speaking of embodied characters, something I really appreciated about Zoe is that she’s plus size, or she’s fat, and representation for fat Asian Americans –in particular Fat Asian women and fat Asian queer and trans folks.
And there are multiple characters who have different body sizes and different body types in the text. So what was it like to write a character that is, I guess, representation for us?
Thien-Kim: Yeah, so just to address what, what Virginia was saying, I think the luxury of having more than one or two Asian characters in the stories that you can really show how we are, right?
We’re all different people. Like some of us are bad at math and some of us are mediocre at math. But for me, like it’s so funny, I’ve been fat all my life or made to feel fat all my life. Like my mom was like, well, you need to go on a diet.
And you know how Asian moms can get about [00:08:00] weight. And it never occurred to me until this book that hey, I could write a fat character who loves her body like I have. So I’m in my forties and I went through quite the journey with my body, and I’m larger than I ever was. But I like my body more than I did 20 years ago.
And I wanted to write Zoe in that way where she’s happy with her body. Yeah. There’s issues with navigating the world. There’s a line that she says like, she’s a fat woman living in a skinny person’s world because there’s a chair that’s squeezing her sides because it’s not made for larger people, things like that.
But I didn’t want it to be her struggle. And I think because she’s what we would call like small fat or mid fat. She’s in size like 18-20, and larger people do have different issues navigating this literal physical space. But because I am not that size, I didn’t feel comfortable sharing that kind of experience, but I wanted to share her as comfortable in her body, [00:09:00] people found her sexy– more than one person finds her sexy. Things that we deserve. There are fat people who are sexy and they have, Yeah, people who find them sexy.
Virginia: Oh, we love it. We love it.
Stella: I’ve been a small fat my entire adult life and I’m also in my forties, and so it’s wild to actually see Asian Americans who are not super, super slender in any type of media. It’s wild.
Thien-Kim: Yeah. I remember Margaret Cho, right when she was on her show, I don’t know how old you are, but “All American Girl.”
Yeah. “All American Girl.” We love it. And it’s funny because I remember when she was on, I was probably like a teenager. And then now I go back and look and like she wasn’t that big. I wouldn’t have called her fat. Right. And now she’s a lot thinner, you know, I’m glad that she’s happy with her body, but she went through so much and I think, oh my gosh, the way people make us feel because we don’t fit in that stereotype of the young, skinny, virginal Asian person that’s supposed to be there to serve people. Serve men.
Stella: And [00:10:00] we get the double whammy of Asian fat phobia and American fat phobia, which is like a wild Venn diagram to live in because there’s, they’re different. And both horrible.
Virginia: So this book feels like it pulls a lot from your personal experiences like you’ve already shared and your life. What was the process of writing this like? Did you feel like you put a lot of yourself in the text? Did you have to reexamine certain situations? How was that for you?
Thien-Kim: This book was really hard to write. Not just because of the material, but we had a lot of health issues in our family, life made it hard to focus on creative work. But also like Zoe and Derek, I have been in their shoes in one or two points of my life. And so I’m putting so much of myself. I grew up in Louisiana in a small town the way Derek grew up in a small town in central New York. We were the only Asian family in town. My sister and I the only Asian kids in school.
Wow. So I was drawing upon that experience. Mm-hmm. And then Zoe, her body [00:11:00] confidence and what I now I feel confident enough to stand up for myself and my values and maybe not as much as before, and I drew a lot of that for Zoe and also like what Zoe experienced being asked to whitewash a show, which mm-hmm that she was doing a costume design for, I had a similar experience in my theater career.
Virginia: Mm-hmm.
Thien-Kim: And that I worked for this small theater outside of New York. The owners had asked me, they were doing a production of South Pacific, and I dunno if you’re familiar with the show, but it takes place in a fictional island in the Pacific Ocean during World War II.
And there are these like terrible caricatures of Asian or Pacific Islander people in the show. And they were being played by white actors when I was working there. And the owner said, Hey, could you teach ’em how to do Asian eye makeup? Well, first of all, I don’t know anything about doing stage makeup.
That’s not, wasn’t my expertise, but I really thought like if I said no, they were gonna [00:12:00] fire me, and then I would have to like go home because I didn’t, like, I’d never been put in this situation. And after talking to like my, my fellow coworkers in the costume shop, and they were very supportive. And I said, one, I don’t know how to do this right.
And two, I could not live with myself if I was teaching them how to tape their eyelids or whatever and do eyeliners to make their eyes look like monolids. And they were okay with it. And then the person who was doing the makeup and stuff, they figured something out, but I’m like, I want no part of this.
Virginia: Hmm.
So we’re curious how do you, and I guess envision’s the wrong term, but I guess, what does this Vietnamese opera meets rock musical sound like?
Thien-Kim: Oh my God. Yeah. Have you seen “Six”? I was imagining “Six.”
Stella: Yes. Okay, okay. I was like, are we talking Andrew Lloyd Weber? Are we talking “Hedwig and the Angry Inch,” “Spring Awakening,” but “Six” is also incredible, so
Thien-Kim: like, “Six.”
And then I I love “Rent.” “Rent” is one of my favorite musicals ever, so I’m like, [00:13:00] “Six,” “Rent,” maybe a little “Hamilton.” mm.
Virginia: Yeah. I really appreciated all the, I guess, Easter eggs of musicals and plays and just theater references that again, it’s if you know, you know, if you don’t, well, I mean, you can still obviously enjoy the book but it’s just like an extra layer of yummy goodness.
Thien-Kim: Oh good. That’s what I was going for.
Stella: Yes. If you’re a theater kid that wants like a sexy romcom with Asian Americans, this is right up your alley. And people hooking up in the dressing room, I was like, yes. This is very,
Thien-Kim: This is very high. I never up in the dressing room other places.
Yes.
Stella: Everyone is hooking up on these sets. I’m like, mm, mm-hmm. Theater kids. The original hoes… the original hoes.
When I came out back in 2009, I first came out as demisexual and [00:14:00] it’s been really wild to see representation for demisexuality increase visibly over the past, you know, 20 years.
And I never ever thought I would be in a position to start seeing books about demisexual characters and protagonists, especially demisexual of color. So that’s been really incredible. And at this point I identify just more generally as queer, but I would still say I’m on the asexuality spectrum. And so I wanted to ask you, Thien-Kim, about what it was like to write about demisexuality.
Thien-Kim: Yes. When I was writing this, when I had sent the manuscript in for the first round of edits with my editor, she liked a lot of it and she said, I wanna understand more of how Zoe is attracted to Derek. Like how does the process happen?
Because I think some sections weren’t clicking and maybe they jumped to the physical part too fast. And I thought about it, I’m like, [00:15:00] oh, that’s a really good question and I’m trying to figure this out ’cause I couldn’t quite get there. I think friends to lovers is tricky because you have to show that how well they work together as friends with a little hint of how they could work better as lovers, right?
And the more I thought about it, the more I realized, I’m like, Hey, this is something I can relate to. And I had kind of toyed around with the idea that I was on the asexual spectrum. And when I was, took my classes to be a certified sex educator, we had a whole section on asexuality and I was reading, I was like, oh my gosh, it sounds like me.
Mm-hmm. I thought about in the past, growing up, when all my girlfriends were boy crazy. I feel so old. They were into New Kids on the Block. I was sent to new kids on the block. So I picked, I picked a person that I thought looked attractive and I said, that’s, that’s gonna be my, my person, Jordan, for any New Kids’ fans.
Stella: I was gonna Jordan ask if
Virginia: My bias was [00:16:00] Joseph McIntyre. Joey McIntyre, and my wrecker was Jonathan Knight. So I understand.
Stella: Yeah. There were were so many J names in that band.
Virginia: I know.
Thien-Kim: Yes. Then I realized, like that was a pattern with me. Mm-hmm. When I got back into reading romance, after having my first child, like the whole thing was like, who’s your book boyfriend?
Who do you find sexy? And they would always talk about people they wanna jump in bed with. I’m like, oh, maybe I should be part of this conversation. Mm-hmm. So I picked a celebrity, and that was Idris Elba. I mean, not a bad choice. But I realized I’d never fantasize about random celebrities.
Like I would find them attractive. But, so I’m like, oh, what’s going on here? And then it just all clicked and I said, Hey, this is, this is me. I’m demisexual. And I used a lot of my experiences to put it into the book, but I wanted Zoe to be in a more comfortable space. Like, kind of like what, what I aspire to, to be a comfortable demisexual woman, dating this time and age.
Virginia: [00:17:00] Mm-hmm.
I really appreciated how you explained, like, you had her explain, or not explained, but like share her experience with her friends, but it wasn’t very textbooky. Like, well, friends, we’ll jump outside of the story and tell you let’s talk about asexuality. But it was just very natural.
Like it’s definitely something you would talk about with your friends, right? Like, Hey, what, what does that mean for you? Or, oh, is that okay? Like, people checking in. And then, so I really appreciated how just everything — not just about the queerness, but even race and gender and experiences. People checking in, like they are aware that this person has multiple facets and they check in on those parts.
It never feels shoehorned in like, oh, there’s an agenda or something. But this is how people talk to each other. This is how people care for each other. So I really, really appreciated that.
Thien-Kim: And I also think theater is kind of a place where misfits gather, right? Mm-hmm.
You don’t quite fit into the, [00:18:00] to the quote unquote norm. And so everybody’s a little weird. Everybody’s a little different. Mm-hmm. The theater was where I really got to know my first queer people. I mean, that’s the joke. Like theater is full of queer guys, but also there’s other queer people.
I wanted to create that whole family in this book mm-hmm. By having different people on the queer spectrum and they’re just doing their normal thing. They love who they are. And I think that was where I met queer men who were just so confident in who they are, who they loved, who they fucked, whatever.
Why not show that? That’s really what it’s like to work in a theater and meet these people.
Stella: Speaking of friends and found family, I loved how much of that there was in this book. Everybody, the both protagonists, both Zoe and Derek have support systems. They have friends, yeah, they have family.
They’re having conversations about worrying about their parents being able to retire. Zoe meets up regularly with her group, The Boss Babes, and I love women friend circles. That’s the thing I love. And so getting to see her have her support [00:19:00] there, but also with TJ and then seeing that Derek has friends.
It’s always nice when male protagonists have an emotional support system. Because so often they’re just like, you know, romance right now floating around a lot of alphas. Right, right. Just little lone wolves that find a woman and it’s like, oh, that’s their entire universe now. And I’m like, I love that Derrick has ambitions that he has mm-hmm dreams and that he’s so excited to support Zoe in hers. So, what was it like for you to write those things?
Thien-Kim: I have never wanted to write an Alpha character because I’m not attracted to them. And I think for like, my philosophy in life was that I don’t need a partner to feel whole.
Mm-hmm. And I wanted to impart that on all of my characters. They have their own dreams and ambitions and yes, they met someone and realized that their life is so much better with them in it. And that’s what I’m going for with my romances.
Virginia: Yeah. It comes through, it comes through and [00:20:00] I love how, these friends aren’t afraid to have confrontations, to have arguments. They’re not like stereotypical third act fights, misunderstandings. It’s like, no, this is like important stuff. Or like, Hey, you’re not being a good friend.
Or they’ll say you’re a people pleaser. It’s good friends who know you really well, telling you maybe things that you don’t want to hear about yourself, but I either in a gentle way or in a moment of like, you suck kind of way. But they come back together, right?
I love how you model really good boundaries and really good ways, like healthy ways to fight, healthy ways to say sorry, healthy ways if people snap at someone, they apologize. It’s so lovely to have so many green flags.
Stella: Just a hill of green flags.
Yeah. That’s as far as the eye can see.
Virginia: Yeah, just, everyone’s just lovely. And I really, really, really need, is it Karen May, or is it.
Thien-Kim: Who’s the Katie [00:21:00] Mai?
Virginia: Katie. Katie Mai. I really need a whole book about her.
Stella: Oh my God. Yes, please. As soon as she is introduced in the book, I was like, Hmm, what’s gonna happen here?
What’s gonna happen here? And I was so excited. I was like another fat Asian American woman in the cast, and they’re different and they’re not competing over anything and
Virginia: mm-hmm.
Stella: I’m just like, Ugh, I love this so much.
Virginia: And the sapphic romance, I just, I, I need her story with, is it Thao? Just, I love them both so much.
So they’re so, yeah.
Thien-Kim: My husband, after he listened to the book, he said, what happened with Katie Mai and Thao? I’m like, I dunno.
Virginia: I’m gonna buy it.
Thien-Kim: Every couple story in the book.
Stella: I know all the Boss Babes, all the side characters. Yes. Every–
Virginia: This is gonna be like a 30 book universe. I, I approve of this. I want this.
Thien-Kim: Oh my gosh. Please put it out there. Yes. I love it.
Virginia: I demand, I demand this.
Stella: TJ is gonna get a [00:22:00] novella.
Yeah. Him moving to Vegas.
Thien-Kim: TJ was not intended to be such a big character, but he was just one of those, like, as flamboyant as he was, he just jumped off the page and like, all right, you’re just gonna have to be in the rest of the book.
Virginia: Yes. We love him so much. So much. And I love all these like, so funny thing about our podcast is the reason why I somehow coerced Stella into becoming my co-host is because I had already paid for like a Squadcast/Descript subscription, and I was recording another podcast that actually did not really launch.
But the only reason I got Stella on board is because I was like, but Stella, I get 10 hours a month, but I only really use like four to six of them. I can’t let those other hours go to waste. You have to help me use them. And she’s like, fine. And so I love, that’s the reason why Derek’s mom is like, I’m going on the plane [00:23:00] because otherwise you would waste the non-refundable one-way ticket.
Thien-Kim: I mean, that’s like Asian frugality for you, right? We. Like eke out every penny of what we paid. And then some. Yes.
Stella: Listen, there is nothing Asian moms hate more than wasted potential.
Thien-Kim: Okay. Exactly. Oh yeah. We have a joke in our family whenever we go eat, like, all you can’t eat. I’m like, you only get the meat. No rice, no noodles.
Virginia: No liquids, nothing. You know, it’s like the, like pebbles and sand and rocks that you put in the jar. That whole metaphor. You eat the most expensive protein, the most, the most expensive stuff first.
Thien-Kim: Know you’re great. Have you, have you heard of the sitcom? It’s Canadian sitcom called run the Burbs?
Oh no. So it’s the best friend from Kim’s convenience. He plays a lead in it and he’s a stay at home dad.
Virginia: Oh.
Thien-Kim: And his wife is South Asian. And [00:24:00] he actually says Vietnamese during the show, I think it’s on Hulu, but there’s a scene where they’re about to go to an buffet, and the whole family’s like, meat, meat meat.
And then his father-in-law goes, what about dessert? I’m like, eat sweet and sour chicken. It’s sweet and meat.
Stella: Wait, is this the one where the main character sister roasts him for like, oh God, what does she roast him for? I, I saw a clip where she’s basically like, you were the boy in the household. Like you have no idea what it’s like to be an immigrant daughter. She’s like, you haven’t done shit. Like, I don’t know what you’re complaining about.
Thien-Kim: It’s a, it’s a really funny sitcom. I love that. The husband and wife, they’re always in things together and the conflict in each episode isn’t about them miscommunicating, it’s all their weird shenanigans.
Stella: And all the family, it’s always, yeah, it’s always family and friends, right?
Virginia: So Thien-Kim, you said you’re also a book coach. And I know I have actually had friends who have used your services [00:25:00] and could not stop raving about you.
So could you please tell us a little bit more about what that is or what you do for folks?
Thien-Kim: Yes. As a woman of color who is a writer, I had a really hard time finding a support group when I started because I didn’t know where to find all, like the Asian writers, Asian romance writers because a lot of them use, back when I started they were using white pen names that to get published.
Right. And so for me, yeah, right. It, it was a thing. And some of them, if they had tried to put Asian characters in it, they would get feedback and say, can you make this character white? So that’s what they did to get published.
Virginia: Oh, I’m so sad right now.
Thien-Kim: Yeah, we’ve come a long way.
We’ve come such a long way. And thought like, what if I could be that for someone and give them that one-on-one nurturing and encourage BIPOC writers, BIPOC and queer writers to finish our books. They can publish it in whatever way that they want. So that’s what I do for book coaching. [00:26:00] I primarily work with BIPOC and queer writers and wherever they are, I meet them. If they started a book and they need help finishing it, if they have an idea, they don’t know where to start, I’m there and we create a game plan together. And writing is tough and it’s good to have someone.
And it’s so funny because I had major imposter syndrome when I started doing this. ‘Cause people would come to me and ask questions and just listening to them, people were looking up to me because I have three books out, even though sometimes I feel like a baby writer and I realize I have all this experience, so why not share that.
So that we can have more BIPOC writers and queer writers have their books out in the world. So that’s why I coach. And it’s just, I don’t take a lot of clients. I’m dealing with chronic fatigue and some other client it issues. So I do take people on a case by case basis, but I love working with writers.
Virginia: So how can they check out your services?
Thien-Kim: Yeah, you can go to my website thienkimlam.com and there a section for writers and I’ll give you more details and you can always DM me on [00:27:00] Instagram if you have questions about it.
Virginia: Also, she has a Discord group for Asian American and Asian diaspora writers and I’m part of it. And we’re pretty chill in there I think. Yeah.
Stella: So I feel like romance as a genre has shifted and changed a lot, particularly in the past 10 years, particularly since movements like Own Voices has come out. So I just wanted to ask for your opinion on this. What have you enjoyed seeing more of in Romance over the past decade? What do you think has changed?
Thien-Kim: Oh I’m definitely seeing a lot more asian American romances for sure. And also books where race is not the main issue or conflict in the story.
I think that before, those were the kind of things that publishers wanted to see. Kind of mirroring the things that I talk about “Something Cheeky.” Those kind of stories make white people feel better about themselves. It’s so true. [00:28:00] You know, like the east meets west and oh my gosh, the west is the best kind of thing.
Mm-hmm. And I, I think that’s changed a lot. And because we’re seeing more and more books written by Asian American writers and Asian Canadian writers we’re showing different parts of diaspora. People are allowed to be different things.
Virginia: Mm-hmm.
Thien-Kim: Because there’s more of us, we don’t have to worry about fitting into one mold.
And that’s what I like a lot.
Virginia: What would you like to see more of?
Thien-Kim: I would like to see more intersectionality in romances, especially Asian, like queer Asian romances.
Virginia: Mm-hmm.
Thien-Kim: I’m actually working on a proposal that’s a sapphic romance that I’m, gosh, I really hope I get to write it. Because I’ve already in love with my characters.
It’s enemies to lovers and instead of a meet cute, they have a meet hate.
Stella: And it’s sapphic? Oh my god. The tension, oh, my,
Virginia: where is it? I need this right now.
Thien-Kim: I’m so excited about it.
Virginia: We must have this in our hands.
Stella: [00:29:00] Speaking of tropes though, what are some of the favorite tropes that we have in romance?
Thien-Kim: Oh, tropes I love to read are enemies to lovers. Yes. And fake dating, fake relationships. Yes.
Virginia: Yes. Forced proximity. We love it.
Thien-Kim: Those are my favorite.
I just finished reading Joe Uras oh gosh, okay. I just finished it. I have her second book here. It’s called “Raiders of the Lost Heart.” And they’re all like “Indiana Jones” meets “Romancing the Stone.” So it’s like archeologists but with with Latin characters. ’cause Jo’s Mexican American and they’re so funny and I was laughing out loud.
There’s lots of good sexy times in them.
Virginia: Oh. But since we’re speaking of tropes I really loved how every time poor Derek tries to confess his feelings, something happens.
Thien-Kim: Poor Derek, he’s trying so hard. And the cat, I had so much fun writing the cat’s shenanigans, Mr. Bobbins.
Virginia: Oh, that cat hates him. [00:30:00]
Stella: No, that cat has some amazing moments.
Virginia: I’m still laughing about it. How do you feel about the third act breakup? It’s kind of controversial, but I mean–
Stella: For listeners who are unaware, the third act breakup is some people consider a controversial plot device in romance novels where the main couple breaks up in the latter third of the book. And some people love it, some people hate it.
Thien-Kim: I feel like it wasn’t such a controversy until recently.
Virginia: Oh, that’s true. Yeah. I never thought it was a problem.
Thien-Kim: For me, I try really hard to make the breakup believable. Mm-hmm. Right? And it’s so funny ’cause everyone’s like, oh, I hate it when the characters don’t communicate.
I’m like, how good are you communicating in real life with someone that you have feelings for? Like, not good.
So that drives me crazy. Like, that’s not realistic. Why don’t you just tell each other how they feel? I’m like, have you seen people try to tell each other how they feel when it’s something so deep and important? Like, we suck at it? But for “Something Cheeky,” I think that third act breakup is I, I knew how I wanted them to break up [00:31:00] when I started writing it.
Oh. And for me it was like, how do I make it believable that they have fall, especially for Zoe and demisexual to fall in love with Derek, but then what happens between them that makes her walk away? Mm. Which I imagine was not an easy decision for her.
Virginia: Mm-hmm. So let’s talk about Greg.
Thien-Kim: Ooh, Greg A. Powers.
Stella: Is the A for asshole.
Thien-Kim: I don’t remember what I made the A stand for, but I think that works.
Virginia: So for those who don’t know, Greg is Derek’s mentor or was his mentor and he’s in a position of power over Derek and his play and yeah, that he’s. He is, everyone knows that Greg, everyone’s had to deal with a Greg, right?
Like he’s very paternalistic. He thinks he’s like your typical white male liberal [00:32:00] who thinks he’s doing you a favor by him being so cosmopolitan, right? But, but really, he’s just a paternalistic asshole.
So please tell us why you included him. Yes. And how fun was it to write him and his comeuppance, which everyone knows is coming, but like, okay.
Stella: He had come such a good comeuppance.
Thien-Kim: So fun. Okay. I didn’t realize this until I published my second book. Because I was writing this book as the second book came out.
Mm. That all of the villains in my book, my books are white. So I’m just gonna go with it for the rest of my career.
Virginia: I mean, they should be, they usually are. It’s real world reflection. And you, it’s, you have like that meta commentary about it as they’re discussing.
Stella: We’ll just say statistically, because white people are the majority in this country, you’re just more likely to find white villains.
Well, it’s, it’s a numbers game, guys.
Thien-Kim: But so he’s the artistic director [00:33:00] and he’s the one that’s so proud of himself for inviting Derek to come do this production at his, at his theater. And when I wrote him and all these things would happen and I thought, is this too much? Is he a caricature?
No. And then I would talk to people and I would remember my experiences of the microaggressions that I’ve experienced in working with certain people and thought, no, it’s not. Because once you aggregate, once you list them out, it seems like a lot, right? Mm-hmm. Like how can one person be this much of a jerk and be so oblivious to what they’re doing, but this is real life.
And I remember at dinner, I would tell my kids , they would ask me how my writing was going and I’d say, oh, Greg. Greg said this. And they’re like, what? I can’t believe it. You know?
Virginia: That’s so cute that you talk about this with your children. My kids couldn’t give shit.
Thien-Kim: Yeah, I do. They gimme feedback on stuff and they’d be like, you made Mr. Bobbins do what?
Virginia: The cat, the cat is Mr. Bobbins.
Thien-Kim: So. I was really worried at first, and then I just [00:34:00] went all in. I’m like, you know, it’s okay. It’s fiction. We need a good villain to hate. And then, a week after my book came out, someone posted on Instagram and said that Greg reminded them so much of someone they used to work with, they had to step away from my book and take a moment. And I was like, should I put a content warning about Greg?
Virginia: Content warning: typical white dude. Yeah, white duding.
Thien-Kim: And then it just became fun. I’m like, what else can I do to make Greg be an asshole? And and then that, I think that the way his comeuppance is more satisfying, right?
Virginia: Yes.
Stella: So, satisfying.
Virginia: So satisfying. And then the thing is though, again, I don’t really think he’s a caricature, and I don’t think the things that he does are even that oblivious. He knows what he’s doing, and he’s couching it in a way that it’s deniable, right? Like mm-hmm. And I, I know so many people who have dealt with Gregs. I’ve met [00:35:00] Gregs. I have dealt with Gregs.
Stella: They always know exactly where the lines are so they can skate as close to them as they can. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Virginia: So what were your favorite parts of this book?
Thien-Kim: My favorite parts
Virginia: To write, to write and to experience, and reread because I, I don’t know about you, but I cons, I’ll, I’ll say, oh, I’m looking for a passage in my book, and then I end up reading the whole damn thing again.
I’m like, I wrote this. Why am I reading this again?
Thien-Kim: So like, is it a good feeling to go back to your work and go, Hey, this is actually really good.
Virginia: Yeah. Like, who wrote this? Isn’t that great? Right.
Thien-Kim: My favorite parts, I always love writing the sex scenes. I just, I just find it really, satisfying, no pun intended.
Right. So one of the sex scenes towards the end of the book where they used bad Vietnamese pickup lines.
Virginia: Yes. That’s so great.
Thien-Kim: And I remember, like, I, I had this idea, it must have came to me like in the middle of the night when I was trying to fall asleep or something. So the next day [00:36:00] I emailed my editor and I said, what if I do this?
And originally they were gonna be quoting a Shakespearean sonnet or something like that, and then making it dirty. Because they’re theater people. Like that’s sexy for us, I guess.
And then I couldn’t find a sonnet that I liked. And I remember watching a TikTok or something where people were doing bad Vietnamese pickup lines. I’m like, yes, that is it.
Virginia: I love it. No, that part is so, so funny. Okay, so tell me more about this liking writing sex scenes. I despise writing sex scenes. I, in fact, try never to read the ones that I write ever again. I’ll write it. I’ll be–
Thien-Kim: How many children do you have?
Virginia: I’ll be, I have five. No, it just means, okay, so people think that just ’cause I have five kids, I’ve had a lot of sex. But really you only need to have sex once while you’re ovulating and be A: very fertile, and B: have your husband be virile, right?
Like you just, [00:37:00] you only need one time. So yes, let’s just say we’re very accurate versus prolific.
Thien-Kim: So for me it’s not about like the physical movements of it. Mm-hmm. But what are they experiencing when they start this? And where does the intimacy take them? Does it take them getting closer together or further apart? How are they feeling during it, and does this affect their relationship to each other and does it make things awkward later?
And I don’t know, I just find that really fun. And to me, sex scenes isn’t just when they have intercourse, but first kiss. Like that’s a really big moment in this book because of their prior relationship as friends. And it’s just exciting. How does kissing make such a big change in their lives?
How do I make that fun or exciting or anxiety provoking ? First kisses, like no one has a good first kiss. First kisses are not necessarily pretty or great. Mm-hmm. And I mean, so that one was [00:38:00] kind of awkward.
Virginia: I mean, yeah, I mean, I haven’t had a first kiss in like 20 something years since like November, 2001.
Thien-Kim: Oh my gosh. I remember my first ever French kiss and I was like, Ugh, what is happening?
Virginia: Let this dog lick my face.
Thien-Kim: I’m like, this sounded so much better in the books I read.
Stella: Whose idea was this?
Thien-Kim: Right. Not till you meet the right person. You’re like, oh, that is actually kind of fun. But yeah, I do understand like it can be really hard to write a sex scene or just, you know some people find it just very embarrassing.
And I have taught a class about writing emotional, more inclusive sex scenes. Mm-hmm. And hopefully I’ll get around to doing another session of that later this year.
Virginia: Yeah. I, I had wanted to sign up for it, but I think something came up and I couldn’t.
Stella: Oh, and speaking of sex scenes, if anyone was sad that there was not a sex scene with a [00:39:00] sonnet, there actually is a sex scene with a sonnet later in the book, so.
Thien-Kim: Oh, that’s right. I remember.
Stella: Yeah, we get both.
Thien-Kim: I did get to use that.
Stella: We get bad pick, bad Vietnamese pickup wine and a sonnet Friends, two different sex scenes
Virginia: Thien-Kim’s a giver, everyone. A giver.
I wanted to ask you more about the Boss Babes. Mm-hmm. What I love again about your book is that all these relationships feel real. It’s evident that you live in the DMV or have lived there, or it’s evident that you are Asian American and specifically Vietnamese American.
You can feel that, and it’s evident that. Like, oh, when you read this, you’re like, yes, Thien-Kim has friends and she has friends who are good like this. You know what I mean? What was your inspiration for these Boss Babes? What role do friends like these play in your own life, and how did it make into the books?
Thien-Kim: Okay. I have trust issues when it comes to friends. My inner circle is small. Mm-hmm. The trust issue is just a joke, but I’ve always had a small circle of friends, so I’ve never been the person that I needed to feel like I [00:40:00] had a lot of friends, just like people close to me that I can trust.
Mm-hmm. That’s where I’m really drawing it from. I have some friends on group chat, we’re always talking, like I thought about them when I came up with the Boss Babes. I have read so many things and watched so many TV shows set in the DMV and it’s obvious the writers never lived here and I wanted to.
Virginia: You’re like, that would take two hours,
Thien-Kim: right? It takes two hours to get from like Maryland to Virginia during traffic or whatever. I wanted to make the city feel like a home and not a political base and not the capital of the United States because the people who are involved in the government, it’s a very small percentage of the population mm-hmm of people who live here, who live and, and thrive and work here. I wanted to showcase that. We’re always hearing about politics in DC but you don’t really hear about the people who live here and what we do.
Virginia: Mm-hmm. I love that it was a community theater. I mean, it was like a important theater, but it wasn’t in New York or LA.
Thien-Kim: There’s a really big theater scene in [00:41:00] DC which is actually why my husband and I moved here because we are both in the theater and we were working in a theater in Central New York and hated the snow and said, we should go somewhere else, but we didn’t wanna move back to Louisiana ’cause the, the theater scene is not quite as big there.
Stella: Just really quick, friends, A non-exhaustive list of themes and topics covered in something cheeky include race, gender, queerness, anti-Asian, hate, demisexuality, sex positivity, fat liberation, musical theater, workplace harassment, activism and advocacy, bilingualism, community found family and aging parents being able to retire.
So if you want a book that talks about these things and handles them in a really, a really respectful but also gentle manner, it’s fun. Mm-hmm. It’s sexy. We suggest you guys check out “Something Cheeky.”
Virginia: Yeah. And no trauma guys. Obviously there’s bad [00:42:00] experiences, but there’s no trauma. And on our podcast we love no trauma. We want more stories of Asians and Asian Americans with no trauma.
Thien-Kim: That’s not to say that I don’t have trauma, I just don’t wanna write about it.
Stella: Yeah, yeah. No, totally. Actually, something I really appreciated is that I, I feel like not a lot of authors understand this.
You don’t have to be explicit about the racism or sexism or harassment in order for it to be real. Mm-hmm. So there is a scene in the book where there’s an anti-Asian hate incident, and I love that the scene is about how the protagonists and their community handle the aftermath and not about the explicit things that were said or written or any of that.
Like, that’s not what’s important. And I really felt affirmed in that scene. Like, if something awful like that happened, then I too would lean on my friends.
Thien-Kim: Yeah, I [00:43:00] definitely knew that I did not want to spell out what those awful things that were written.
Virginia: Mm-hmm.
Thien-Kim: When they vandalized the place because that was not the important part of that scene.
Virginia: Yeah. I just love all the ways community is expressed so beautifully. Just care, not just emotionally, but also physically caring for each other with food and snacks and drinks or after drinking too much, how they care for each other to make sure everyone’s safe. Taking into account how many drinks people have had.
It’s like if you don’t know how to be a good friend, you could just read “Something Cheeky” and learn how to be a good friend.
Thien-Kim: Oh, I wasn’t doing any of that unconsciously, to be honest.
Virginia: That just means you’re a good friend. It’s just part of who you are. And then you can enjoy sexy times along top of that.
Stella: And there’s so much food. Oh my gosh. Yeah. There’s a moment where someone mentions eating Cheetos with chopsticks, and I was like, yes. Yeah. That’s how I eat it. Yeah. It’s my fucking people. Yes. Mm-hmm. This is incredible.
Thien-Kim: Okay. I have never eaten Cheetos with chopsticks, and maybe it’s because where I grew up and then I saw people doing it, I’m like, are white people [00:44:00] stealing our chopsticks for Cheetos?
Virginia: I actually prefer eating everything with chopsticks because I cannot stand the sound a fucking fork makes.
What are some of your favorite parts about being Asian American or Vietnamese American?
Thien-Kim: Well, the food obviously. I will eat any Asian cuisine over non-white non-Asian cuisine. It doesn’t matter if it’s Vietnamese or Korean or, living in the DC area, we have access to a lot of different Asian cuisines.
I like that. This is, no one’s ever asked me this before. This is a hard question.
Stella: Isn’t it challenging? You’re like, oh, it, it’s because
Thien-Kim: I can think of all the things I don’t like about being,
Stella: Especially when you think about your own people, you’re like, oh God, these are all the things my people do that I can’t fucking stand.
Thien-Kim: Wow. I feel really stumped. Oh my gosh, this is very real, everybody. I, I do like that I can share a lot of my culture with my kids, you know, even though we don’t live near family and [00:45:00] the.
I feel like an inadequate Vietnamese person right now.
Virginia: No, no. There’s more than one way to be a Vietnamese person.
Stella: Nobody can take away your Viet card from you. It’s yours forever.
Thien-Kim: That’s right. I even wrote about it and “Something Cheeky.”
I like that when I meet other Asian people, we have a shared understanding of our shared experiences living in this country. And that’s a good way for us to connect and bond. I don’t know about you, if I’m at an event and there’s not that many Asian people, I will zoom towards them.
So I do like that shared experience. Mm-hmm. I am also like really proud of the Asian American entrepreneurs in the us. Like I just was able to buy a Vietnamese áo dài traditional wear in my size. Mm-hmm. There’s a company in California called, Áo Dài by CuteSass, and they carry extended sizing.
I’m probably the biggest that they carry, but I have never ever had a Vietnamese áo dài that I could buy off the rack and fit me. So I do like [00:46:00] that other Asians are really working to make our culture more accepting and inclusive of people who aren’t skinny and straight.
Stella: Pale.
Thien-Kim: Pale. I mean, I’m pretty pale, so,
Stella: I am sitting here at like five foot eight and I’ve never been able to buy clothes in Korea. Like that’s not happening. And again, as a lifelong, midsize, small fatty, clothes in Korea is a pipe dream.
Thien-Kim: That’s why created Zoe’s shop. Right?
Virginia: Like it’s great.
Stella: I want a bra whisperer.
Thien-Kim: Yeah, me too.
Stella: So this is a question that we tend to end our interviews with. Virginia and I have talked before about how we’ve evolved and changed a lot over the course of our lifetimes. We’re always in the process of becoming, and I think we’re happier with who we are now than who we used to be.
So how do you feel about who you’ve become and are becoming.
Thien-Kim: Ooh, that’s a good question. I’ve [00:47:00] had so many different jobs and I used to think like, why can’t I stick to one thing? Why can’t I find something I love? I always find something wrong with this career that I chose. I started businesses and then all these things.
And it wasn’t until three or four years ago, I looked back and I said, all those things brought me to where I am now. Mm-hmm. Like “Something Cheeky.” I couldn’t have written “Something Cheeky” without, without doing all those different things and being able to use my experiences in this book, and I love who I am now, and I know I’m gonna love where I’m going, because I have learned to accept that I love learning about new things and I wanna grow as a person, so why not just embrace it and see what happens.
Stella: Okay, so we gotta close out the podcast. Thien-Kim, thank you so much for joining us for our episode.
We just wanted to ask where can people find you in your work?
Thien-Kim: Yes, you can find out all about me on my website, thienkimlam.com, and I’m on Instagram a lot. And [00:48:00] I’m in other social media places, but Instagram is where you’re gonna find me doom scrolling and sharing pictures most often. It’s @msthienkim. No hyphen, no spaces.
Stella: Brazen Nation, that was the episode. Thank you so much for joining us, and we hope you get a chance to check out Thien-Kim Lam’s, “Something Cheeky.” I was your co-host, Stella.
Virginia: And I was your co-host, Virginia.
Thien-Kim: And I’m Thien-Kim.
