The following is an auto-generated transcript of the Brazn Azn podcast Episode 20. It also includes affiliate links that do not affect the price you pay, but allows me to recoup some of our costs. Please excuse any mistakes or misspellings as we do not have the time nor bandwidth to edit.
Show notes
In this episode of the Brazn Azn podcast, co-hosts Stella and Virginia Duan chat with Tracey Gee, certified leadership coach, consultant, and author of “The Magic of Knowing What You Want.” They explore why desires are good, how pursuing individual desires can contribute to social good, and how our desires are magic.
- The process of writing about our desires
- Validating Desires and Overcoming Barriers
- The Magic in the Process
- The Vulnerability of Desires
Follow Tracey on Instagram and her site.
Listen to Brazn Azn Ep 20
Transcript
Stella: [00:00:00] Hi, Brazen Nation. This is the Brazn Azn podcast. I’m your co host, Stella.
Virginia: And I’m your other co host, Virginia Duan. I’m the entertainment editor for Mochi Magazine, as well as a freelance writer and an author of two books. Yay! So if you like angst, found families healing from trauma, and all set in a steamy K-pop background, these are the books for you.
So check out my books, “Illusive” and “Weightless.” Today I’m really excited to have a longtime friend and author of the book, “The Magic of Knowing What You Want” by Tracey Gee and our very complicated feelings about what we want and our desires.
Stella: Brazen Nation, if you haven’t heard of Tracey Gee and her new book yet, just to give you a little intro to her. She is a certified leadership coach and consultant, and she’s a sought after speaker and facilitator nationwide. Virginia and I were so, so excited to read her new book, “The Magic of Knowing What You Want.”
[00:01:00] One thing that I actually personally really loved about this book is how systemic and thorough so much of the process in the book is.
So because I’m a person that really loves organized systems and I like approaches that have compassion and clarity, built into them. If you’re also a person that is looking for this kind of approach and you’re stuck on the question of what do you want Tracey’s book is an incredible resource and we’re so excited to interview her today.
Virginia: So Tracey, why don’t you say hi?
Tracey: Hello, so happy to be here.
Virginia: Brazen Nation, I have known Tracey since fall of 1995 at UCLA through the, I guess it’s a para church organization, InterVarsity. And I get really excited about this book because I feel like I see glimpses of myself through it Because of all the cool things I’ve taken advantage of Tracey when she was like offering Coaching sessions and was starting her blogs and I would just be like, hey I hear you’re offering coaching sessions [00:02:00] so anyway, I’m getting ahead of myself, but clearly I haven’t done interviews in a long time. Tracey, can you tell us a little bit more about yourself or say hi or something before I keep talking?
Tracey: Well, I don’t know if you called me to take advantage. I think I offered because I was trying to get my certification and I needed folks that were willing to do it.
So I think you were being kind to me by saying, sure, I’ll let you experiment on me. So that’s how I remember that part.
Virginia: Well, you’re very gracious.
So Tracey, can you tell us about your book, what it’s called, and what it’s about, and what you hope folks get from it?
Tracey: My book is called the “Magic of Knowing What You Want.” And the subtitle is, it’s a practical guide to unearthing the wisdom of your desires.
And so I am somebody who reads a ton of personal development self help books. Like I love those. I just am fascinated with people and how people tick and what makes them think the way they think and, [00:03:00] and particularly what is unique about who they are and how they can draw on those strengths that are really specific to them.
And so I love reading about that. Anyway, so this book is a Guide to understanding that question. What do you really want and to do that from a way that’s holistic and personalized and authentic to who folks are.
Virginia: Every time I hear ,the title of your book, I think of “The Notebook” where Right.
Stella: Nicholas Sparks?
Virginia: Yeah. Like, where, you know, that meme of
Tracey: Exactly the one you’re talking about.
Virginia: Ryan Gosling going, “What do you want?” Yes.
Tracey: My editor suggested that as a title and I was like, I can’t because Ryan Gosling has forever imprinted on that. I can’t, I can’t do it. I cannot hear. I can’t. Can’t read that without thinking about that exact moments.
I know exactly what you’re talking about. And I was like, we can’t, it cannot be the title because I just can’t, I will, I’ll die every time you see it.
Stella: But when the book launches, your media [00:04:00] team, somebody needs to make that an Instagram post. It needs to be that moment.
Tracey: That would be great.
Stella: That would be incredible.
So Tracey, thank you so much for writing this book. And one of the questions we had for you was kind of like, how did the book come about? Like, what made you decide to write it?
Tracey: It was really, it’s what I talk about in the book.
There was just these repeated conversations I kept having with people where, you know, in my training with StrengthsFinder or these other modalities that I’ve learned to help people understand themselves, they sort of start with the assumption that the way that you’ll help people is they’ll tell you what they want.
And then you can help navigate how that knowledge about themselves, helps them get there, so all the presumptions are, that’s point A, you start with what you want, and then you go from there. And I feel like that’s kind of true. We get a lot of those types of helps and contents and books around know what you want, and then hear some , Next [00:05:00] steps, strategies, tactics to do what you want.
But I kept running into people who were like, I don’t even know that first part, how the heck can I talk about the rest that comes after because I’m stuck here at this point. And it was that repeated thing where I just kept hearing that from folks and it wasn’t going away, and it just it kind of broke my heart because people were, just felt so alone and so lost when they were talking about that.
Like, Ah, I feel like such a loser, or I feel ashamed, or I feel bad about myself, like, what’s wrong with me? There was all this self judgment and self incrimination about that, and I got to be the person that’s like, whoa, whoa, whoa, that’s super normal, actually. A lot of people feel that way. That happens a lot.
And I don’t have all the answers, but here’s some things I’ve seen work for people. So let’s try this together. And then I would get to see some of that clarity develop. And then over time it was like, Oh, I’m recommending similar things to most everybody [00:06:00] that’s having this kind of question. So it just really came out of conversation.
And I think that’s one of the things that I am most proud of in the book is that it’s not just like, here’s something I sat down and thought about, or it was theoretical. These are real people that mean so much to me. I’ve gotten the privilege of seeing that wrestling and then also what’s on the other side of that.
So I think it was just literally through talking to a million people about this question over and over and over again.
Virginia: That’s what I really actually liked about it because you include so many examples in your process of how you personally went through this whole discovery process of your desires.
So I really appreciated that.
What was the process of writing and editing this book like? Because you mentioned how, oh, it came about very organically, you just found yourself saying the same things over and over again to people and not in like a robot type of way, but in, in just seeing how that’s how people move through this process.
What was the process of [00:07:00] writing the book like for you?
Tracey: It kind of went from, like, I think I want to write again someday, because writing was something I had done before, but moved away from and sort of assumed, like, oh, that was done. I’m not going to do that in the future.
But then it kind of morphed into like, I think I would love to write again someday. I just don’t know what. And when I set out to do it, it was a hope to be able to get my thoughts and everything I’d learned together in a more simplified way, succinct way. The writing actually kind of shocked myself because I loved it.
I really enjoyed the writing process, which I kind of feel bad sometimes saying, because I don’t know. I feel like you’re supposed to be a tortured writer. You’re supposed to be like, I hated it, but I did it. And I did the art, you know I don’t know. Maybe that’s just in my own head, but I really enjoyed it.
It was, it felt so fun. Of course, you know, there’s ups and downs with it, but I did really enjoy it. And then the editing process [00:08:00] was also fantastic. I’ve never been someone who likes editing because I’m just annoyed I want to be done. Let’s move on. But editing actually was wonderful. I had credit that to my editor.
She’s fantastic.
Virginia: Oh, yeah.
Tracey: Huh. Another Asian American woman. Mm hmm house. Love her I remember, going over one of the chapters, which was just giving me fits. And she’s like, yeah, I just, I don’t think it’s working. I don’t think it’s clear. And I’m like, yeah, I know I’ve rewritten this one like five times and I still hate it. And she’s like, oh, well, that’s great. That’s really good.
I was like, why is that good? Because we agree. I’m like, oh, great. So we both agree it sucks. Fantastic. That’s wonderful. But she was right. I mean, she was absolutely right. And then it forced me to go back again and figure out like, okay, I haven’t figured out how to solve these problems in it. I think it was one of the most collaborative things I’ve ever done.
Deeply, deeply collaborative in the best way. And she Was [00:09:00] not holding back, not pulling punches would like be totally fine to say this is not there. This is not working. This isn’t right, or I don’t –this doesn’t seem good and be like, okay, she’s right and I need to go back to it. So I’m forever grateful to her and it was it was a really It was a really good process.
I was a little sad when I turned it in. A little bit sad. Happy, of course, but like, oh, that’s done. Yeah,
Stella: The process is done, right? Like, oh,
Virginia: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. What chapter was it?
Tracey: Chapter four.
Virginia: Oh.
Tracey: Yeah, because you know why? That one was, see, here’s the other thing that was tricky about the writing is some of these things were tricky because I had never expressed them before I’d never tried to capture them and teach somebody else There’s just things that were in my head and then there were other things that I had taught so much and it was hard Then to figure out what’s the right [00:10:00] way to do this in book form and that was chapter 4. That’s the stuff I’ve probably taught the most like it was chapter 4. Chapter 4 is the calibration like figuring out like, you know, what is what is your — and I’ve done that the most as far as like workshops or speaking things, and and therefore, it was hard because I had a particular order the way that I do that when I am in a live event like that. But I was like, that’s not going to work for the book form and I couldn’t quite figure out how to get it into the right thing. I don’t even really know if I fully got there.
I hope so. It’s at least as clear as it can be at this point. But yeah, that one was definitely the hardest because of that reason.
Virginia: I mean, it was pretty clear to me. So
Stella: I was going to say kudos to you and your editor. I feel like you guys really managed to, to make it. What is the word I’m looking for?
Like it was so approachable. It was really clearly understandable. I’m sure that it’s such a different experience to be able to do this with you [00:11:00] live, whether through events or consulting, but I did feel very much like I was being guided through this process and I wasn’t confused at all. And so that felt really good.
Tracey: I love that. I love that. That’s what I hope for. Okay. Hold on. I’m going to text her that right now. I’m just kidding.
Virginia: She’s Korean, right? Your editor.
Tracey: Yeah. Grace P. Cho. She’s fantastic.
Virginia: We love it. A lot of the early book is grounded in not only your experiences, but you spend a lot of time discussing the validity of desire. And I was like, Oh, I’m already sold on this.
Get me to the magic. I already know that my desires are great. So why was it important to you, to spend time on validating desires, and what was the journey of validating your own desires like for you? Mm.
Tracey: That’s so interesting. That’s a great question because other people, that’s the main barrier [00:12:00] to this topic.
So it’s because I’ve spoken to so many people, a lot of them who have come out of evangelical context. They’re so emotionally stuck on this idea of, I’m terrible. I can’t listen to my desires. And I’ve seen so many people wrestle with that as well as I talk about how I had to work through some of that in myself as well.
So I think it’s because I was aware not everybody will fully get why this chapter is here and why it exists. But for me, it felt important to offer that because I’ve seen so many people have such difficulty with that and challenge with that, especially when it gets conflated with religious thinking, and literally have heard and sat through sermons where pastors are like, you only care about what you want, if you don’t care enough about God’s will, literal quotes of, of things that people have said.[00:13:00]
And and so I just think there’s so much of that messaging specifically in that world. And I get that that’s not everybody’s experience, but for me it felt important cause I, I felt some of that tension. In the book I talk about this early experience of just being like, I’m going to try something every day because I want to.
And I remember being in my backyard doing something extremely simple, planting tomatoes, but in my head feeling like, is this okay? Is this bad? Who would be mad at me to know that I was doing this, and what would they say? And then it was like, wait, why are these voices here? Like, where the heck did this come from?
Why is this in my head so strongly? And so, it was a lot of that I’ve seen people go through.
Virginia: Now that you mention it, I do recall going through this 15 something years ago and then I was just like, well, I don’t fucking care what they say. I don’t really care what God’s will is.
I’m just going to do what I want. So, and then I felt like it was so much better after that. [00:14:00]
Tracey: You have the unique ability to do that. So not everybody. Right. There’s still like, Oh, I don’t know. Is this okay? Like I had someone tell me recently that they found my subtitle activating and I was like, Oh, that is so interesting.
Is it, is it really? Is there really wisdom in our desire? Are you sure? You know? And I was like, yeah, I get, I get that. I get where you’re coming from.
Stella: I mean, I highlighted that quote, “your desires contain wisdom that doesn’t reside anywhere else in your soul.” I mean incredible. I was just like, Oh, what a word.
But the question that I had that kind of piggybacks off of this, as I’m reading this, we’re talking about validating desires and thinking about what they really are and what they teach us. I started thinking about people that I knew that would struggle with this process because I think there are a lot of people that see how unfair the world is.
They see how unjust things are. And I’m really glad you talk about privilege because it does help to put it in this framework. There is a privilege in being able to pursue [00:15:00] your desires. But I also think that there are a lot of folks, particularly those who have left these evangelical spaces because they’ve gotten back in touch with their empathy and they’re like, how could God let this happen?
How, how does this world exist? I think they feel morally justified in choosing not to pursue things like desire, because they’re like, there are people who can’t even meet their own basic needs. Who am I to, you know, and so like, how would you counsel someone that was kind of going through this process with you that was experiencing this kind of block around their desires?
Tracey: That is a great question. Honestly, that’s one of the things that I wrestled with the most internally as well. That is a really hard one. I don’t know that I have all the answers to that, but I think where I landed was it’s similar, I think, when we talk about suffering in the world, and it’s clear, like, we all have suffered, but the amount of suffering that we have to deal [00:16:00] with, it varies based on privilege and all these other kinds of things.
What I tell people, who then use that to sort of turn it against themselves, and say, well, why do I feel so bad because other people have it way worse. So what’s wrong with me? Like, I, I need to get over this. Like literally just talking to a friend who has recently gotten a diagnosis of a chronic illness and was like, yeah, but I’m, I’m okay. Mostly I don’t have this, that, and the other. And so why should I be feeling bad? I should be feeling grateful. I’m like, but I don’t think it works like that. I don’t think compassion is limited. And it’s, and I think it’s a scarcity mindset to sort of think that way and assume that you need to downplay your own suffering.
And I think this is an extension of that. That’s why I talk about Native worldviews of a way of being in relation to the world that is more abundant and not like a zero sum thing. And, and from that vantage point, I think that helped me enter in to say, yes, that is so [00:17:00] real. I fully own and acknowledge that I don’t have to wrestle with the things that a lot of other people do.
And that’s such a privilege and I need to hold that and be aware of that and have a humility about that. But ultimately I want to think that God or the divine or however you image that, that there’s an abundance there to be able to enter into that, that I as an individual can still step into that even if I don’t have the credentials of suffering maybe that someone else does.
Stella: And honestly, I feel that people who are most marginalized probably should have the most opportunity to engage with what they desire, right? If anybody should get to pursue what they want in life.
Tracey: Mm hmm. Yeah, and
Stella: So.
Tracey: Yes. Yes, I think I, I heard a an author talk about that where she was like, I am purchasing this home, because of her success as an author, [00:18:00] she was getting to purchase a home.
I think it was Austin Channing Brown. And we’re like, that’s wonderful. And in that post, she named the fact that that was a privilege that not everyone has. And the way she talked about it that I found so enlightening was not that she then should not have this home or feel bad for purchasing, but just like she would wish everyone could have that.
Mm hmm. Everyone should be able to have that. Everyone should be able to have housing that meets their family’s needs. So yeah, I think I agree with that too.
Stella: Personally for me, as an Asian American, as a Korean American and a former evangelical as well, I noticed that a lot of this work is really rooted in collectiveness, our collective stories and journeys and also how our desires are not only good for us, but they can be good for the greater good, can be good for the collective, right? And I loved seeing this approach. I love seeing “Braiding Sweetgrass” mentioned. I really, I, I really resist these themes of individualism and you should go for what you want because it’s all about you. But we wanted to [00:19:00] talk to you a little bit about what it meant for you to try and have these themes so present in the book to ground things in community.
Virginia: Mm hmm.
Tracey: Thank you so much for saying that because that was really meaningful to me. I’m glad that came across. Because that’s the other barrier I felt when I sat down to try to capture some of this stuff and write it. It was like, well, but I know that brand of individualism towards your desires and that’s not what I’m saying.
That’s not what I’m trying to present. A lot of, not exclusively, but the majority of my clients are women and women of color. And I think that’s what comes through in those stories and that’s the heart that I see us having. And that collective approach I think is, is so important, and it’s so intuitive when I’m working with folks like that.
Like that’s just that’s just shared but to try to capture that and express that in the book was like its own sort of challenge. So I’m glad that came across because that that means a lot to me and it’s really [00:20:00] really important
Virginia: I think you wrote I think in the second part, “Abundance doesn’t come from having dominance over everything in our lives. Instead, welcoming abundance in your life is learning how to relate to your desires with openness and curiosity, even when you know you don’t control others or outcomes.” And when you mention it, I just think of the white supremacist reading of Genesis. Like you will have dominion over everything, dominion over the environment. It’s, it’s used to justify just rampant consumerism and stripping nature and just treating the world and people as commodities, and then this idea, you know, I think it justifies so many things about enslaving people or patriarchy, because dominion and submission and all sorts of things.
Did I have a question in this? Stella what was my question.
Stella: You, you were just like, you were like, can we add this to the question list? And I said, sure. And so I just copied what you
Virginia: But I didn’t have a [00:21:00] question.
Stella: Well, do you have a question? Do you want to just talk to Tracey about how shitty white supremacy is?
No, because I’m sure she’d be down.
Virginia: Yeah, I know. So, is there a question to this? So my question is like why did you include it that way? Like, why did you, what was, I feel like it was very intentional. So, was there a reasoning for framing abundance in this way?
Tracey: Hmm. I mean, Stella, you mentioned “Braiding Sweetgrass.” I think that’s maybe my all time favorite book. And I think it really, some another person described it to me as medicine.
Mm hmm. I was like, yes. Yes. And so I think I’m, I was influenced by Indigenous thinking and different ways of relating. So for sure, that idea of dominion as I get to be extractive and exploitative and ruin this thing, that’s never been my read of Genesis, but again, that Native worldview is, is so deeply helpful in [00:22:00] giving a picture of what that I think is more supposed to represent.
So I think Dominion has been so misunderstood and used to justify all kinds of horror and terror. I wanted to include it because the way that then we are affected by those whispers of white supremacy is that then we start believing that that has to be true, too. I can’t possibly engage with what I want, because in order to do that, I have to control everything or have to control all the possible outcomes or have to control other people.
It’s funny that you drew on that part of the book, because I don’t spend a ton of time on it. But it was actually one of my favorite parts. Mm hmm. I loved thinking about that idea of, wouldn’t it be so powerful if we both, if we disconnected. Knowing that we could be taken care of and our desires could be met with abundance without feeling like I have to [00:23:00] control and exploit, because that’s what white supremacy can’t do and hasn’t done.
And I loved this idea. And I don’t know how clearly that part came through, but just like maybe as individuals and smaller communities, if we could do that, if we can embrace that, maybe that changes something on this level, even if it’s small at first. Maybe that starts to unhook some of those things.
Yeah, so I really enjoyed trying to think about that. And in that way,
Virginia: I just got chills. And I don’t know if, so what we’re trying to do with this podcast is that we want to broaden what it means to be Asian American, Stella often says, like, she doesn’t want to normalize the queer, she wants to the queer the norm.
And I feel like that’s kind of what we want to do with Asian America. And what I love about your book is that it’s expanding what it means to be Asian American, right? I mean, obviously for everybody. But one, I [00:24:00] don’t think we hear or see Asian Americans talk about desire a lot.
And I think that’s why I particularly loved the community aspect, and then this dominion thing, right? It’s not extractive. You’re not going against your family if you pursue your desires. It expands what it means to be Asian American.
And part of it is that pursuing your desires is a good thing. And then that’s good for Asian Americans. That’s good for everybody. And then the more people can be fully who they are and who they want to be, the more this world can change for the better. I think that’s a lot of what Ellie Yang Camp’s desire was for her book, and so both of your books has really resonated with me because I’m like, yeah, this is what I want. This is what I want our lives to be like. So my husband jokes, I don’t actually know how serious he is when he says this.
I just, I just choose to believe he’s joking. So no one go at him. He’s very great. But he always says like, Oh, he actually has six [00:25:00] children because I’m like a teenager and I just do what I want. And sometimes he’s bitter about it because I’m like, I’m like, I’m not stopping you from doing what you want. It’s your problem if you don’t know what you want to do it, you know, like I should give him this book.
But he does not read, so occasionally people say I’m selfish because I do what I want. I think I mentioned this to you before, but also to Stella, is I find your book so subversive because you use corporate speak and I don’t mean it in a bad way.
I just mean like you use the language that people use to oppress us, but you use it to free us. And your language is like what we were mentioning before about how you spend a lot of time setting the stage of why your desires are actually a good thing and why we should pursue them.
And I’m like, let’s just get to the good part. But as I read more, I realized actually this gives me a really good foundation to go, No, I’m not being selfish. This is why desires are good. So it’s, I feel [00:26:00] like it’s very subversive in the fact that it uses language that normally tries to keep us down and , just be happy with your cubicle and your, your health care, you know, because otherwise, what good are you?
But like, yeah, I just, do I have a question? I don’t know. I just wanted to tell everybody that this is one of the best parts about this book. It sneaks in and gives you a good way to say like, Hey, no, Hmm. You’re not being selfish,
Tracey: I love that. I love that you use that word subversive. I don’t think that’s one that I’ve ever used myself on it, but I love that idea because I think when that was the thing that I was seeing in all those conversations, it’s like when people feel that distant from this idea of what they want, they’re so bound up. They’re not free. And that’s what was so heartbreaking is like, you don’t have that freedom. And that’s what I want people to experience. I want people to feel like, yes, you, you can be [00:27:00] free to explore and to play. This is your choosing, your making.
Stella: Plus, I think it’s important to remember that people who act in bad faith will use any justification they can. So, you know, people like you’re being so selfish and it’s like an actual selfish person doesn’t need. any reason why they’re being selfish. They’ll just do what they want, and they’ll give you whatever reason comes to mind, right?
Whereas someone who is intentionally considering their desires and questioning what place does this have in my life and what sort of things are stopping me, what’s moving me, what makes me feel alive, I don’t understand how that could be a terrible thing to consider.
Virginia: Well, when people are alive, you can’t control them.
Stella: All you can control is you in this moment, right?
Virginia: Even that is kind of questionable.
So I had a question too. I really enjoyed reading this book because it came at a time where I’m planning, where I’m reflecting on what happened in 2024 and planning for [00:28:00] 2025.
Tracey: Mm-hmm.
Virginia: And so one of my major goals or the things that I wanted was that I’m going to publish at least one more book. Mm-hmm. And so part of me was just like, well, is it really setting a goal if I was just going to do it anyway because I wanted to? I don’t know if that makes sense, what my question is, but it’s sort of, you know, it’s like, it’s like when you’ve done things and then you write it on your planner as to do this, but you’ve, it’s done already, like you wrote it just for the satisfaction of crossing it off.
So like, is it worth making goals, like desire based goals on things that you would have done anyway? If that makes sense. Or you wanted to do it. Again, I am very like, sometimes I think I’m all, is it id? Where I’m like, I feel like I’m a toddler. I feel like I really relate to my toddler. I want it, so I’m going to get it.
So I’m going to do it.
Tracey: You have a well developed sense of that. Which is good. I think what I’ve seen for people is [00:29:00] yes, maybe that overarching goal would have always been there, but maybe there’s an thoughtfulness or an invitation to how you want to do that in the way that feels good or the thing that I would maybe be curious about is why? Why a third book?
What is meaningful about that to you? What, what would you want this book to bring into your life, or why, you know, what’s underneath that? I had a friend who was, is also a writer, and was talking about writing. And when we talked about it, her writing goals, it was, it basically came down to, she was saying, I want to experience joy as I’m writing.
It’s been a while since I’ve connected that and that influenced then how she approached the writing. So maybe there’s things around that. So maybe the, the overall goal is very clear and you know that that’s what you want to do, which also, by the way, amazing, because will that be three books in three years?
Virginia: Oh, to be fair, I wrote a lot of these books during the pandemic, so it’s not [00:30:00] like I
Tracey: Still. Incredible. But yeah, maybe it’s something about how you want to approach it or what you hope to get out of it, or the support you need to build it, you know. So I think some of those kinds of things maybe could have a little bit more nuance to how you want to fill it out.
Virginia: Nuance. What is that?
Stella: So one thing we noticed about the book is that it’s like, it’s super systems based. It’s really holistic and comprehensive. So, Brazen Nation, if you pick this book up, you’ll see it’s a really guided process, and it’s super thorough.
So halfway through the book, I was like, this is so, it’s so sensible and well planned out. But why would she call this magic? It just feels like mm-hmm, you know, like, what? And then I got to the last chapter, and I, the last chapter exactly. And I was like, oh, that’s why she called it magic.
So. Mm-hmm. You wanna talk to us a little bit about the magic ?
Tracey: The magic. That’s a good question. It’s [00:31:00] helpful to hear your response to that because I personally feel like all of it is magic. When I listen to someone talk about. What brings them joy, what lights them up, what doesn’t, what really fits, that is magical because that is so unique to each person. I’ve literally heard hundreds of thousands of these kinds of examples, and I’m always just like, that’s amazing. Or nobody’s said it quite that way. Or that’s such a specific example to you. So that’s a benefit that I have from the work that I do is I get to hear this so much, and I’m always so entranced by that.
I, I think that’s magical because that’s the magic of who somebody is and how special that is, and I, I just think that’s so cool. Or like when somebody’s talking about, yeah, I, I never have given myself permission to think about what I want, but you’re going to make me write down a list of a hundred things, and then I’m going to have to wrestle [00:32:00] with what that brings up in me and why I feel like that might make me the worst person on earth, or whatever it is that that brings up for them. I’m like, oh, that’s so good.
That’s magical. Yeah. And then, yes, of course, it is building to this overall sense of openness and playfulness that exists in the world and the universe when we step into this realm. And I feel like that’s so important because a lot of the dialogue and narrative I hear around desires is usually just disappointment.
That’s the only way a lot of times that people talk about desires is like, okay, well, then you got to brace for disappointment because it might not happen, which is true. Sometimes it doesn’t. We all have to contend with disappointment, but I wanted to be able to say, but it’s not all just that. It’s not all just disappointment.
There’s really wild and cool things that happen when you step into this. Half of what’s happened in my journey, I wouldn’tve been able to predict that or guess that. Like yesterday, someone asked me, how, how [00:33:00] did you end up working with the Miami Heat of all places? How random I was like, yeah, I, during pandemic downloaded an app called TikTok and started goofing around on it.
Making videos about, I don’t know, dance trends, and then I started talking about what I like talking about, which is leadership and personal development, and I got an email from the VP of the Miami Heat saying we want you to come and do a workshop, and my husband, who is very suspicious, was like you better make sure you’re not about to get kidnapped. That sounds shady as hell.
And looked her up. Sure enough, there she was and that was real. But it was like, I never could have guessed that. That’s, I couldn’t have planned for that. That’s so random. It’s so magical. Like how fun. And if you know me, my background is I grew up in high school. I was a dancer and they wanted me to come in and work with their dance team.
And I was like, see, there is magic in this stuff. And if we let ourselves explore and, and see where it goes and give ourselves permission to not know sometimes and [00:34:00] follow those inklings. Like people are so surprised. And so that’s, that’s what I wanted to also present. So yeah, it’s interesting to hear your take on it though, because that’s clearly very strong in that chapter.
But I, I personally think the whole thing is really magical.
Virginia: It’s funny too, because when Stella was telling me about this question, I was like, but there’s lots of, like, if you, I read a lot of fantasy, right. And I think Stella and I have actually had this conversation about Brandon Sanderson.
But Brandon Sanderson is kind of really well known because I think 20 years ago he started writing fantasy novels with very specific magical systems. And like, these magical systems are very gra and I, I know other authors have also done it. But he, he’s the one who gets the credit, I guess. But he has very specific, a very methodical, very systematic approaches to magic.
And so I was just thinking, I was like, well, that’s kind of like fantasy magic systems. There’s the Harry Potter kind where you just kind of like make up bad Latin and handwave and things. There’s no logic [00:35:00] to it. It just happens, right? And then there’s people who have really thought through the system of how these things work and how, what situations this whatever you get my point.
So I just, I just love hearing both.
Stella: I mean, Arthur C. Clarke says, any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.
Virginia: Oh, right.
Tracey: I love that.
Stella: Isn’t that a really fun quote? Yeah.
Tracey: Oh, that’s so good.
Stella: It’s from some people talk about how in science fiction writing, any sufficiently advanced technology is gonna feel, I mean, my iPhone feels like magic to me at times, right?
Like computers, like, this is incredible. I could not recreate any of this if I needed to.
Virginia: Are you guys publishing a workbook that people can use along with it?
Tracey: That is not currently in the plans, but one of my pre order bonuses is a notion template that I’m sort of as like a you [00:36:00] can use it as a workbook. But not a printed workbook, but I will yes. Yes, that would be amazing
Virginia: You should absolutely tell them to do that because I feel like some folks just like it in one place and then you can fill it out.
Tracey: Yes.
Virginia: Some folks being me.
Like, yay, my journal’s great, but also. But what I really liked is that this system, this like alignment pathway, I forgot the full name. I’m so sorry. It’s not rigid. There’s a lot of experimentation and play built into it. And at first it seems like, well, this seems like a lot of work, and it is. But I feel like you’re very gentle with people about these suggestions.
Like, Hey, I understand, if these, this might be too much for you, you don’t have to do it in this timeline. You can change the timeline. You can skip these questions, whatever, like you, you allow for people who live in the real world to do it. And I love how you reframe questions. You give lots of examples because sometimes, a lot of these types of books, they just tell you something, and then [00:37:00] they’re like, now do it.
And you’re like, I would like some examples, please. And they give you like two, but you give at least 10 examples every time. And you pull from so many different traditions, different cultures. And it’s just, I guess there’s no real question but more a praise, like just a gush at you about just how, how gentle it is, you know?
Stella: It was so tender. Yeah, no, no, no. I think a lot of personal development books sometimes veer towards tough love at times to motivate people, but I found this text to be so tender. It was, it was, it was playful, it was curious, I think it really invited people to think expansively about exploring their desires.
And it is scary, it’s terrifying, I think, to think about what we want when you write that it’s a doing question. And not, you know, it’s like that action is what [00:38:00] leads to clarity. And so sitting and actively thinking about what do I want and what’s, what’s a step I can take forwards? What can I try?
It’s really scary for people, right? I was telling Virginia, like, we feel so married to our circumstances, to our shame, to our fears that it can be really frightening to let them go. And so I was just so glad to see that so much of this is like somebody holding your hand and saying, Hey, we’re going to go through this.
It’s going to be okay.
Tracey: I’m so glad that came through. That’s my heart. I was trying to put that heart in there because, yeah. I think that’s what we need. We, we can’t, I, I don’t respond personally well to, to that style of like, just do it. Just, you know, I just, I’m like, I’m out. I can’t. So, you know, just me personally, too.
I, I, I don’t do that. And yeah, I’m glad that, yeah, that came across on the page.
Virginia: And also, I love how you have affirmations. Because I always roll my eyes at affirmations. Cause I’m
Stella: like, they’re so good. But
Virginia: they’re
Stella: so good. They’re so good. They’re so [00:39:00] good. And I can totally see them on like an Instagram carousel.
Like I’m ready for when this book launches, I’m going to be saving posts. I’m going to be like, yes, I want that one on a poster.
Virginia: No, because there’s just so, it’s, it’s, it’s just. Again, tender. It’s like, it’s very kind and it’s very, and it’s not cheesy because I feel like a lot of affirmations are really cheesy and you’re like, Oh, yeah, I’m the best.
And you’re like, I don’t really feel like I’m the best, but okay, you’ve got this. But, but you know, you, it’s just very, I think some of them were like, I can’t even remember them off the top of my head, but they’re just, they’re just, they’re great folks. Don’t feel like she’s lecturing you. This book is just going to be so kind and sweet.
And so one of my, cause I had posted Blue Sky and Threads about your book, about finishing it, and I was being excited. And one of my friends was like, Okay, this sounds like something I need. I was like, Yes, you do need it. You should pre order it right now. And she’s like, Yes, but I don’t [00:40:00] I don’t know what I want though.
I was like, that’s perfect because this book is all about how to figure out what you want. She’s like, well, I don’t. Well, what does that mean? Like, is she going to yell at me? I was like, no, she’s so nice. And it’s just like, there’s affirmations and there’s lots of questions and there’s other questions behind the questions.
And it’s just, it just makes you think about things and tries to break shame about not knowing what you want. And she’s just like, okay, this. I’m so excited. I was like, you should be excited. And so I just want. We’re all excited. We are, we are.
Tracey: It’s so sweet. I love that.
Virginia: So, so yeah, I, I guess, could you tell us more about why you chose this particular tone or this approach versus, you know, it could have looked a lot different.
It could have looked a lot like, don’t you know, you just don’t want things enough.
Tracey: I think you, there was no other way for me to write it. That’s, that’s how, that’s who I aspire to be and who I [00:41:00] am, I think. And actually, I don’t know, it’s like healing something in me to have you affirm this in me. Because I think early on I felt maybe sort of sheepish that that’s who I am.
Like, maybe that’s not okay. Or it’s not, it’s not an academic book. You know, I, I went through some of those mental machinations. Like, I don’t know, but I’m not like a researcher and I don’t have like scientific journals to cite. I have my work with people and my heart for that. That’s what I have.
So there wouldn’t have been another way for me to write it. Cause I just, that’s just how I approach this. But, it’s meaningful to me that that feels like a gift because I think I sort of felt embarrassed like, Oh no, is that okay? Like, is that, is that, is that, should I be more like yelling at people?
You know, cause that’s what gets traction, right? Sometimes I’m just like, yeah, that’s, that’s just never going to be me. So I got to write it the way that I can do it. And, and [00:42:00] what comes through through the way that I think.
Virginia: Yeah. I think I was so surprised. Okay. First of all, folks, the whole book is wonderful, but that last chapter.
That last chapter is just I kept getting chills when I was reading it. I just made me want to cry. It made me believe in magic. It was just so beautiful. That last chapter.
I mean, of course Everything in the book is very important, but that last chapter I feel like makes it so human and like you’re writing it for people in the real world, not some ideal situation where I guess you don’t have children, you’re not married, you don’t have a job, you just have all the time in the world to just navel gaze, I guess.
But your book is just so kind and so understanding and I was so surprised at how light I felt after reading it. Which is never really what I think of when I think of books that tell me how to be a better [00:43:00] person.
Stella: Ringing endorsement.
Tracey: I love it. I love it.
Stella: No, but I, I felt that the book was so genuinely authentically aligned with you as a person, which is what made it feel sincere. It made it feel like tender, like a conversation between us, you know, you as the writer and us as the reader instead of exactly like a lecture or, you know, like an admonition. It was, it was affirmations. It was kindness. And I also think Virginia and I talked about this.
I think that a lot of this could be adapted for people who are in situations where they don’t have full access to certain resources, like maybe they’re a teenager, maybe they’re chronically ill or have ADHD, you know, difficult financial situation. There’s still a lot of wisdom in the text that people can glean from it, even if they may not be currently in a space where they have access to everything [00:44:00] they need to fully pursue a desire. And I think that you actually make those kind of accommodations in the texture, like, you know, not every desire is an occupation.
Not every desire is something you need to change your job and go do. It could be something that you enjoy doing in your free time. We don’t have to monetize everything.
Tracey: We really don’t, we really don’t.
Virginia: What is an outcome you’re excited to see now that your book is launching? I guess when this podcast comes out, it will have launched.
Okay. But like, what, what are you excited as you’re, or maybe it’s just like terror. I don’t know.
Tracey: There’s a fair amount of that. Yeah. To be totally honest. I mean, you know, it’s trite for I think authors to say, Oh, this book is my heart. But it really is like, this is, this is my heart in book form.
So that is terrifying and vulnerable. What I want for it, [00:45:00] what an outcome I want. And again, I know this is also trite and every author says this, but for it to end up in the hands of people who need it. That feels magical to me. That feels miraculous because it’s, you know, I’m very aware. I’ve had many people in the publishing industry tell me how I don’t have this big platform to facilitate that.
So for me, it feels like that would be a miraculous. Like I had specific people in mind in the writing process, and when I started to lose my way or like I’d had to just come back to like, Who is this for? Who am I writing to? So. I think that’s the biggest thing that I hope for is for that to happen somehow.
Cause I feel very limited in my ability to force that. In some sense I have to, I have to take my own medicine and be like, okay, well you can’t control that. But you still want it. So sit with that. But yeah, that, that very much feels like most top of mind [00:46:00] for me.
Virginia: I, I’ve written a lot about like just how vulnerable it is to talk about our desires because people will always say like, well, who do you think you are to, to get that, you know?
And so that’s what I really love about this book because you acknowledge just how scary and vulnerable it is. And I know I always bring everything to BTS because BTS is the one true religion.
Seven idols of awesome. But you know, their debut song is, it’s called “No More Dream,” and it’s all about the things that they want. They wanted a big house, a big car, big rings and all those things. And it was very vulnerable, I feel like to, to say that because it’d be like, well, you’re 20 years old.
What the hell are you going to do with all this shit? Like, who do you think you are that you are going to be this way? And there’s this, there’s this fandom truism that says like, oh, , you will find BTS or BTS will find you when you need them the most. And like every ARMY, which is the fandom of BTS, has their ARMY origin story of how BTS found them in a particular time.
And I feel like [00:47:00] that’s, that’s what, I want that for your book, for you. And then you’ll, you’ll hear from people saying like, hey, I found this at this time, and this is what I needed. And so It’s the magic.
Stella: It is magic.
Virginia: I love that. It is magic.
Stella: So, I was telling, I was telling Virginia, what do you think might change if we start believing that the universe wants good things for us?
Hmm. Right? Like what, what a mind shift to believe that the universe or God or, whoever is out there, the divine, that they want good things for us.
Virginia: Yeah. Absolutely.
Stella: So on that note, Tracey, where can people find you and your book?
Tracey: I love probably Instagram the most. So when I’m online, I’m mostly on Instagram.
I do do TikTok. [00:48:00] And so those are the places to hang out and connect online. My handle is @TraceyGee.Me because somebody took my name without that. So that’s on Instagram, both. Instagram and TikTok, same handle. And then where to buy the book? Anywhere. Anywhere you can find books. Oh my goodness, last week my publisher told me in February it will be in physical Target stores so I’m freaking out about that.
But yes, other than that, it’s, it’s everywhere. Support indie bookstores, obviously. But wherever you, wherever you buy books is good.
Virginia: Yeah, support indie bookstores, but also, oh my god, Target!
Stella: I can’t wait for merch. I’m, I’m manifesting this. We want merch for this book. So much. I’m not joking. I’m, I’m, some of these quotes, I’m like, these need to be on posters.
Like, I need this on a T-shirt. I need it in baby, toddler sizes and kid sizes. This needs to happen. Stanley Cup.
Tracey: Right. Yeah. Universe, Universe, are you listening? We, this is, this is where it started. Stella, Stella said it’s [00:49:00] gotta happen now.
Virginia: All right, close us out, my friend. Oh, yes.
Stella: Brazen Nation, thank you for joining us. We were so excited to talk with Tracey Gee and we hope that you enjoyed hanging out with her as much as we did. So please check out her book. Please check out her Instagram and TikTok accounts. And we’re so glad you could join us tonight.
I was your co host, Stella.
Virginia: And I’m your co host, Virginia.
Tracey: And I’m Tracey Gee
Virginia: Yay! We did it! We survived!
Photo credit: eyemjonarthur photography
Comments are closed.