The following is an auto-generated transcript of the Brazn Azn podcast Episode 21. It also includes affiliate links that do not affect the price you pay, but allows me to recoup some of our costs. Please excuse any mistakes or misspellings as we do not have the time nor bandwidth to edit.
Show notes
In this episode of the Brazn Azn Podcast, co-hosts Stella and Virginia delve into the nuances of religious language, including the use of the word “blessings,” and discuss their experiences deconstructing Christianity. They also cover moral authority, the violence of missionary work, and how they’re raising their kids outside of the church.
- Is the word “blessing” offensive
- Navigating Religious Trauma and Inclusivity
- Deconstructing Faith and Leaving the Church
- Cultural Identity and Religious Conversion
- Moral Authority and Relativism
- Progressive Faith and Justice
Listen to Brazn Azn Ep 21
Transcript
Stella: [00:00:00] Hello Brazn Nation. This is the Brazn Asian Podcast. I’m your co host Stella.
Virginia: And I’m your co host Virginia Duan, also known as Mandarin Mama, I’m the entertainment editor for Mochi Magazine, which is the longest running online Asian American women’s magazine, a freelance writer, and an author of two novels currently: “Illusive” and “Weightless.” If you are into angst and incredibly messy, messy people and just recovering from trauma and all set in the backdrop of of K pop.
And some spiciness, then check out those books. All right. What are we talking about today, Stella?
Stella: So today we’re talking a little bit about religion, and really the question is: is this religious? And maybe our relationship with religion and our complicated feelings about it. Yes. So actually, our [00:01:00] topic today is partially brought to us by Virginia’s last two newsletters.
She has this newsletter she sends out and you mentioned this question about like blessings and luck and I don’t know, I kind of wonder, like, do you want to tell us some more of your thoughts on this? Yes. Sure
Virginia: so quick plug, my newsletter is called the chaotic joy newsletter. You can sign up for it on mandarinmama. com. It is not a sub stack, so you do not have to pay for it. So it all started when I was on threads and a person that I follow on threads who I do not know personally have just kind of commented occasionally on their posts So we’re not like internet friends either, but I’m, I don’t know if she would recognize me, but I probably have commented enough that she might recognize me.
But we don’t chat or anything. And I make this distinction because there’s plenty of people that I do chat with online who I’ve never met in life. So [00:02:00] they mentioned that they had recently had a miscarriage. Oh and also. Are pregnant again. So I wrote congratulations and many blessings, which I personally think of as , like a generic.
I’m happy for you. I want good things for you. Type of comment.
Stella: It hits a little differently than like, good luck. Do you know what I mean? Like, yeah, yeah. Best wishes for
Virginia: you. Yeah. Best wishes. Best wishes sounds like the shittiest thing you could say. Anyway. So I didn’t think anything of it. She liked my comment.
Cause I think she took it in a way that it was meant.
So a few, a day or two later, they wrote a post saying to the effect of normalized congratulating people without saying anything religious. And they included blessings in that category. And again, I don’t think they were saying that I [00:03:00] was trying to push.
Stella: Right. Right. And they probably got a lot of, they probably got a lot of comments.
Virginia: And I don’t think they were saying me specifically, but also a hit dog will holler and I was like, I clearly remember saying blessings, because that’s my go to thing. And so I was like, Oh, well, I. First of all, you go through the five stages of grief, or not grief, but fear.
You go through like the five stages of, oh shit, am I about to get canceled or did I do something bad on the internet?
Stella: Right? Yeah, fair, fair.
Virginia: Like I got really defensive, like, whoa, it’s like a neutral term.
Stella: Mm-hmm.
Virginia: Jesus Christ, like, why are you so sensitive about it?
And then after that initial of like, bleh, feeling passed through, I was like, okay, well okay, I see where they’re coming from, and is it a semantics thing? It doesn’t harm me to say a different word, right? Right, right. I see it as like, happy holidays versus Merry Christmas.
Stella: Mm
Virginia: hmm. You know, like. We can be inclusive, we can, right. Right, [00:04:00] Lunar New Year instead of Chinese New Year. Unless if I’m specifically at a Chinese New Year event. If I’m at a Christmas party, then I’ll say Merry Christmas. Or like, at mass or something. I am capable of altering my behavior, according to the appropriateness of the situation.
So, I was just like, well, I don’t want to offend people. I don’t want to cause religious trauma on people, especially since I don’t believe in God or any particular thing. I’m not saying that just because not a lot of people feel this way, then I shouldn’t care about it.
Right. Right. But I was curious, like, I was like, did I miss. something on the internet. Did I miss this memo? I feel like I’ve, I’ve been in deconstruction spaces , that are pretty diverse not just like token diverse, but like actually diverse.
But, you know, like if you grow up in a thing, it’s really hard to.
Stella: Right, like when you’re deconstructing, removing Christianese from the way that you talk [00:05:00] about a lot of things, it takes time, right?
Virginia: Yeah. So I was like, well, maybe I this is like a huge thing that I missed.
Stella: I don’t know that it would be huge.
Virginia: Oh, right. But I didn’t know. I had no context. I had no, like, baseline for it, right? Like and so I asked. On social media, as one does.
Stella: If you have a problem, take it to the internet to crowdsource answers.
Virginia: Right? Like, I feel like I know enough people who are both religious and non religious to like.
And a decent number of people who are not religious said yes. It is a religious connotation type of word. And people who were ex religious people were like, oh, this is a triggering word. And I was fascinated. I was like,, is blessings? One of those words that presupposes a god, or a deity.
Stella: I would say [00:06:00] yes, because who’s blessing you?
Virginia: Yeah, exactly.
Stella: Like, I don’t have the power to bless people. I am not a saint or a deity, and so like, I can’t grant blessings. I cannot bless a bountiful harvest.
Virginia: That’s true. But parents bless their children.
Stella: Is it really you, or is it like you’re standing in for the God figure at that point?
Virginia: Oh, I, oh, I don’t,
Stella: Do you know what I mean?
Virginia: I don’t remember enough theology for that.
Stella: Because I think blessing in general, in a Christian context, right? If we’re talking about American Christianity, That’s a very common greeting. It’s a really common thing to wish to people like, Oh, you know, blessings on you and such and so forth. You don’t really see it used outside of that context.
So I feel like someone who has never grown up in that [00:07:00] kind of religion or that kind of space, I don’t think they would ever choose to use blessings.
Virginia: I don’t disagree with the pushback against that word, ? But then I’m just like,
Stella: Were you kind of surprised that you still had pieces of Christian ness embedded in you?
You know what I mean? Because you did do a lot to deconstruct over the years.
Virginia: Yeah, I think I just considered it a neutral word. I don’t think I ever really thought about what. The word requires, like in my mind, blessings is just good things.
Right?
Stella: Like wishes. Like luck. Well wishes. Like fortune. Right? Yeah. Yeah. Like may fortune smile upon you.
Blessings.
Virginia: Yeah, because I think in Chinese to me, like, I feel like it’s a very Chinese thing to say. Like any blessings on the new year or whatever and I don’t necessarily think Chinese people are [00:08:00] referring to a particular deity.
Stella: No. Oh my God. No. Well, I mean, I think that it is. Maybe. I don’t know. Like. Folk religion, right?
Virginia: Yeah, so it never occurred to me I’d like you to you know, like you use words and you don’t really think about what it implies. Mm hmm
Mm hmm, and
a lot of people equated it with like thoughts and prayers Yes
Stella: Yeah, because it’s just such a generic Christian word, like it’s just a thing that people toss out all the time, right?
Virginia: And also a lot of people were saying like, and again, I agree with this to a huge extent, for instance, they took most issue with it in the context of like hashtag blessed, which I totally agree with, okay? The worst, God, the worst. Right, right. Like it’s not, that was not my intention with asking the question, but that’s a, like [00:09:00] 90%, this is bad.
I’m just making up statistics, but like the majority of people who took issue with the word blessings is because they conflated it with. The, like, the blessed type of feeling, I’m so blessed my house didn’t burn down in the L. A. fires. Yeah. So. Right? That’s like a hella shitty thing to
say.
Stella: Whenever I see hashtag blessed, I’m like I don’t like this. I don’t like this. There’s something smug about it.
Virginia: Yeah, and then also, it, doesn’t it imply the converse?
Stella: That someone else is not blessed, that they were not as fortunate as you, because God did not favor them? Yeah! Right, right.
So it is kind of interesting that this throwaway comment, this throwaway word for you. Yeah. Triggered a lot of reactions in people. Right. And I think, I think you and I, when we talked about this before this episode, like just in our chat, we kind [00:10:00] of came to the question of like, is it possible to be religious without being a d1ck And I feel like, okay, so that’s a very loaded question, right? I wonder if people Who are religious, particularly Christians and Catholics right now in sort of the context we’re living in, ? I wonder if it’s hard for them to be seen as religious at times. Because my instinctive reaction when people are very religious online, like when they have Jesus in their bio.
Or, you know, John 3: 16 or a cross. I’m like, and I try not to. Immediately judge the person, but if the first thing I’m finding out about you is that you’re Christian, I’m like, you and I probably won’t have a lot to talk about.
Virginia: Oh, we’ll have a lot to talk about, but it’ll be in fighting form.
Stella: Right. Right.
Virginia: Like it’s, I just immediately assume that they are not going to have a good faith [00:11:00] conversation and I immediately assume that they’re overcompensating.
Stella: Which is okay. So just to make it clear to our listeners, Virginia and I firmly believe it is possible to be religious without being a d1ck because we know a lot of people.
Who are religious and are wonderful people, but when we meet strangers and we meet randos and one of the first things you find out about them is that they’re religious, particularly Christian or Catholic, I think more so more so Christian than anything
Virginia: more so evangelical. Yeah, if they go out of their way to say they’re like Lutheran.
Or orthodox. Yeah. And I’m like, you’re probably Catholic, right? I don’t fuck with a lot of it, but you probably seem okay. You know? But it’s in particular evangelicals and people who go to megachurches, and I’m just, ugh.
Stella: And it’s, it does feel judgmental on our part.
Virginia: Oh, I mean, it is, kind of, but.
Stella: But also, a lot [00:12:00] of people who are religious are jerks.
Virginia: Yes. But I would say that there’s a lot of religious people who are like Buddhist religious and Sikh and, and Hindu and Muslim that aren’t jerks at all. So I guess what I mean, when I say religious, I, I, this is a total failing on my part. I default to Christianity.
Evangelical Christianity.
Stella: In our country.
In our country, that’s like the majority, that’s like the big religion.
Virginia: Right. I don’t know, I don’t think I actually have a problem with any other religions. For clarity and specificity. Maybe we just should say evangelicals.
Stella: I sometimes feel a little bad for evangelicals because they’re getting shit on all the time.
But then I’m like, you kind of brought it on yourselves. I’m sorry.
Virginia: Well, people will always like, Come back with the like, [00:13:00] Oh, but what about Muslims and like terrorism and blah, blah, blah. Well, to be about the abortion bombers, like the abortion clinic bombers, I’m not calling all fucking Catholics that, you know, like,
Stella: to be clear, there are awful people in any, like any group of people, some of them are going to be terrible.
And some of them are going to be really lovely, like in any group of people,
right?
Virginia: And then the vast majority. Or just like, whatever. Normal. They’re
Stella: just normal people. Then you have a few that are like, really lovely, and then somewhere you’re like, I, I hope you die mad about a lot of things. Cause I, I don’t like you.
And that’s, that’s okay, right? Right, right. But it is, it is kind of interesting that you and I both immediately land in this like, especially with evangelicals, we immediately land in this place of like, oh, I don’t like it.
Virginia: And part of that is because I was evangelical for a very long time. I was one of [00:14:00] those cringy people.
I was one of those people who constantly had to say, no, I’m not like that cringy person. While also probably still being cringy, right? Like,
Stella: you and I spend a lot of time deconstructing. So, to catch listeners up Virginia and I both don’t attend a church anymore. We’re not a part of any religious, well, I technically am.
We’ll get into that later. But we’re really not a part of any church at this point. We are unchurched, thankfully.
And I feel like my journey leaving the church and deconstructing kind of all happened at the same time. It all happened at once. I know other people go through a really protracted leaving where they stop going to church, but they’re still kind of believers, but then eventually they deconstruct or maybe they don’t at all.
Whereas for me, leaving the church and deconstructing, just all happened at once.
Virginia: Oh, mine was [00:15:00] over two and a half decades.
Stella: Yeah. Yeah. Mine was, I mean, I would say that me reconsidering what my faith meant and what it meant to be Christian, that process probably happened over five years.
Virginia: Oh, okay. Okay. I’m including that in the two and a half decades.
Stella: But choosing to completely leave the church, choosing not to raise my children in an evangelical Christian space and deconstructing my religion radically, like happened in the span of less than a year.
Virginia: Oh.
Stella: So, like, those five years leading up to that year, so, , maybe a six year process, but really, it happened very fast for me, I feel.
Virginia: Oh. No, it took a really long time. I would say a lot of what I look back in retrospect and call it leaving was actually just deconstruction, decolonizing Christianity and, decoupling it from white nationalism. I stopped going to [00:16:00] church, but I would still go occasionally or periodically.
I was still, I was looking for a church that I think felt more,
Stella: that felt like the right fit.
Yeah.
Virginia: But it’s not in the cards and I purposely did not have my children go to church. But even before I officially deconverted, which was probably during the pandemic, ironically, when I had signed up to be part of the Progressive Asian American Christian Fellowship program where you read a ton about theology and deconstructing theology and the first meeting, they said, you know, a lot of people realize they’re queer during their fellowship and they come out.
But I, I, I, by the end, I was like, I think I’m actually not Christian.
Stella: That’s also a common thing. So PAAC holds this like nine, well, we used to, the program is currently defunct, but it’s a [00:17:00] nine month seminar. Essentially. , Every month you attend a lecture and you do readings and you meet up with your small group like weekly to talk about what you read about and we cover all sorts of topics, but basically the main thrust of it is kind of what does a progressive Asian American Christianity look like?
What does it look like to have a faith that encompasses and incorporates all aspects of ourselves? And it’s very light on the Christian- ese, right, like you would, when you hear that, you’re like, oh, yeah, if you’re evangelical, you’re kind of imagining like a Bible study, it’s like, no, that, it did not have those vibes, truly.
Virginia: Oh, I felt like it had a lot of Christian, well, maybe that’s why, maybe that’s why I identified as not Christian afterwards, because, I realized like when people were praying, I would find it offensive or like,
Stella: Oh, okay. Like triggering, like upsetting in some way, like emotionally reactive for you.
Virginia: Yeah. And every time people prayed, [00:18:00] I was just like, who are we talking to? What first started off as this small voice, like, I don’t know. If I believe any of this, and then I was like, well, maybe it’s, or first it started off as like discomfort. Part of me was like, well, maybe it’s just because I haven’t gone to church in so long.
And that the primary form of prayer is journaling for me. And I don’t pray out loud because I find it very performative. Like how many times can we hear Father God over and over again? Anyway, painful. Yeah. But as it went on, I would just get furious when people prayed or said, and even though I don’t think they were trying to be mean about it, I really do think it was like out of good faith and it’s like.
a Christian fellowship program. Yeah. I feel like it’s reasonable to think that people will say things like, I’ll pray for you. Right. You know. Just to say blessings. Right. And so, and that’s why I actually really [00:19:00] understood. The whole, , upset edness about blessings, right, because it would be really hypocritical if I was just like, how dare you take that word away from me?
And I’m like, fuck you praying for me! You know? And the voice just kept getting louder of like, I don’t believe any of this.
Stella: It’s like a crisis of faith.
Virginia: I wasn’t, I wouldn’t call it a crisis really, it was, I, I felt zero badness about it. I was like, yeah, this is bullshit. Yeah. And a lot of it, I actually applied to the fellowship because another one of my internet friends, oh, this person is actually, I consider an internet friend but I’ve never met her in person or whatever.
Coincidentally. Not coincidentally, I feel like I seek out a lot of black women voices on purpose, and I really highly respect both of them. But she, she grew up a pastor’s kid, but she chose to return to an African [00:20:00] faith. Like an African god, goddess and traditions and spirituality and all that stuff.
When she first started sharing about it, I was just like, isn’t that like, you know, you just have the like typical religious violence thoughts of like, oh, well, that’s the devil, which is so insulting to everybody. Like so, so insulting, right? They were talking about how they wanted to worship a god that looked like them.
I got really angry at missionaries to China. And I got
Stella: A valid response. I was just a valid response.
Virginia: Well, I mean, for multiple reasons. But like in particular, of like, you killed our gods. Mm hmm.
Stella: That’s what missionary work is, essentially, right?
Virginia: Your god doesn’t look like me. Right? Yeah.
I don’t know anything about the Chinese gods, or pantheon, or whatever. [00:21:00] Apparently there’s thousands, so really, most people probably don’t know anything about them. There’s the god of money, thanks to Ronny Chieng. I know about that one.
Stella: Thank you, Ronny. But I mean
yeah, conversion is an act of, of colonialism.
Virginia: And then it made me think, okay, folks, I know Neil Gaiman is super canceled. I read the Variety article. Pretty sure it’s true.
Stella: Oh, no, it’s true. It’s very true.
Virginia: Right? Yeah. I’m not debating. The sh1ttiness of Neil Gaiman, okay?
Or any disappointment, grief, whatever you may feel about this person. However, please remember that before this article and the rumors about it, he was. Masquerading as a very good person, and I consumed a lot of his art, and they were very fundamental and groundwork, like, to mine.
Stella: Did you know [00:22:00] he stole most of “Sandman” from somebody else?
Virginia: That’s what I heard. Yeah. Just recently. I didn’t know until recently.
Like, recently as in, like, two days ago.
Stella: Yeah, no, I’m pretty sure we read the same, like, post that, yeah.
Virginia: Acknowledging all of that, “American Gods” was a novel that changed a lot of how I saw Like the idea of it. And I don’t actually even remember most of the book or the plot, I don’t remember sh1t about it. Okay. All I remember is the concept of taking gods from your old country to the new country and how the gods changed and became different gods, even though they went by the same name.
And then like how celebrities could turn into gods, or little idols, like, you know, from Japan and Korea. And then, so that is, is it bad to say that a lot of my theology in general has been formed by novels like C. S. Lewis, Madeline L’Engle, and apparently Neil Gaiman?
Stella: Like Orson [00:23:00] Orson Scott Card, maybe?
Virginia: Yes, Orson Scott Card, a hundred percent. . So I read “American Gods” like 20 something years ago.
And then my friend who returned to her, people’s religion, it made me think does god look like me? Does a Christian god look like me? And I would say no. I don’t think so.
Stella: I don’t think their current incarnation would look anything like that.
Virginia: Well, for sure not. Right?
Right? But even the like historical version of Jesus, I don’t think looks like me. Obviously because he was a rooted racial person in Palestine. You know?
Stella: But that’s, Jesus and God are not necessarily the same person if you believe in a trinity, right?
Virginia: Right.
But also, I was like, this is a Semitic god. Mm hmm. Mm hmm. And whether you’re, you know, Ashkenazi or whatever, any, still does not look like me.
Stella: Asian, but not, but not the same Asian.
Right.
Yeah. [00:24:00]
Virginia: Right. And so, and so then I got angry. I was like,
Stella: who have you been worshiping
all this time?
Virginia: Right? Like, why would they, how can they understand me?
And if I went back to our old gods, do they still exist? Did they die? How do they accept
Stella: you?
Virginia: Right. Would they accept me? Would they even understand me? Because I wouldn’t know how to pray in Chinese. And then I got very upset about it. Can any Asian actually be Christian?
Stella: So this really was a crisis of faith then.
Virginia: Oh, I guess so. But I saw it.
Stella: Not like crisis like you’re tormented about what to do. Oh, correct. Yes. This crisis of faith. Yes, but more like. You now see something in a way that you hadn’t before, and it’s upended things for you.
Virginia: Yeah, and then it made me think of all the [00:25:00] violence that missionaries did, everywhere they went.
But in particular, I was thinking of China and Asia, because that was the context of my thinking.
Stella: But also California, the state we live in. Oh, a hundred percent! The fourth grade mission project. Every fourth grader in our state.
Virginia: Which I never had to take because I skipped fourth
grade. Oh my god, but, but if you think about it, , that’s been a part of the curriculum for decades.
Stella: Oh! Because you and I did it when we were in elementary school, which means it’s been a part of the curriculum for decades.
Virginia: Yeah, 40 years.
So I was like, what, what does it mean to, like, be Asian and to follow a god that killed your own god? And it was very upsetting to me.
And so that’s actually what I went into the fellowship to figure out. , can you be Asian and Christian? Are you colonized at that point? And at what point are you like, I mean, how can you not be [00:26:00] colonized , and is it violence? Is it violence against your own people to believe in this thing that, that hurt you so much or hurt your people hurt you in ways you don’t know?
If I would ever mention it to my mother, I might’ve mentioned it once, like a long, when I was a kid. Or maybe it was in church. Cause I went to a Chinese church. They would have said like, Oh, it doesn’t matter what sort of bad things that the white people did to us because it brought us the true God.
Stella: I was going to say, it brought God’s message. He used something awful to bring good. Yeah,
Virginia: evil for good, just like the crucifixion of Jesus, they took something for evil and made it good. And then that’s how people justified enslaving black people. I accepted that as when I was younger, but now I was like, well, my friend, she’s like, no, I don’t want the gods of people who enslave my people, and I was just like, yeah, that’s right. I, I totally [00:27:00] agree with what she’s saying.
Stella: Even though obviously it’s a different context, right? Which brings us back to this whole blessing thing.
I mean, it’s, it’s, it’s encompassing, right? , it’s this huge thing. It’s tough sometimes to be so, I don’t want to say triggered by evangelicalism, but triggered by it. Because I know a lot of progressive clergy
Stella: They’re phenomenal at what they do. Oh, yeah. Right? And there are so many things I miss about being Christian, but it’s so poisoned to me now. It’s just so tainted. I can’t. Yeah. And it sucks because I’m like, that was such an, a massive formative part of my identity for so long. To the point where we’re using words like blessing super casually.
Yeah, throw away comment and you’re like, oh, yeah, no, that’s that dug in deeper than I thought. Mm hmm.
Virginia: Mm hmm when I first had children, I totally thought I was going to [00:28:00] break toxic religious cycles. We would study the Bible together using the inductive method and all sorts of hermeneutics.
It’s so InterVarsity coded. Anyway but, and, but part of me is so glad we never did that and that I have no follow through whatsoever. Thanks. Yeah, right. That’s what it was. I’m sure it was. The part of me really mourns because they can’t really understand a lot of Western literature prior to a certain time period. It’s like not knowing your Greek and Roman myths in Western yeah right because it’s it’s in everything everything references it which I personally, I think it’s a little bit played out,
Stella: but, but there’s so many illusions to it.
Yeah.
There’s, the canon is huge when it comes to like religious texts.
Virginia: Yeah. How can you understand Ozymandias without it?
Stella: No, [00:29:00] for real.
Religion is a huge part of why printing became a thing in the West, to disseminate religious tracts and all of that.
Virginia: and art. How can you understand half of like, art without it? Because so much of art and like Well, Western, like European. Yeah,
Stella: yeah. Like European, Western. Yes.
Virginia: Is either of the Bible, commentary on the Bible, or a reaction. To the Bible, even seminal works that are criticizing the Bible.
You can only do that if you know the Bible, right? And my kids will be like, what, what does that even mean? Why is it a cross? Why is the cross important? I don’t know. It’s just like this, like even something as fundamental as the importance of the cross. My kids are like, what? I don’t get it. I don’t get it.
I don’t get it. Like, why do they nail that person to the
Stella: You’re having to, like, explain a [00:30:00] method of Roman execution to children.
We’re not raising our kids in religion either. And that’s, it’s been interesting.
We did go to church together with the kids until they were probably six or seven. And they asked why we left. And I said, you know, if you guys ever come out as queer or trans, or you have friends who are queer or trans, And our church doesn’t accept those kinds of people. , I don’t want to be at a place that says.
That it’s not okay to be queer, not okay to be trans or non binary, I don’t want you to have to grow up in that situation, and I don’t want you feeling like you can’t bring your friends to a community that you love, because they wouldn’t be accepted. And my kids were like, that’s awful, why would they think that?
Because I I raised them with this idea that it was perfectly normal to be queer and trans. So they were like, Oh, that’s, Oh God, they probably were younger. They’re probably like four when we left. Oh, wow. Yeah. I mean, we, [00:31:00] we had a lot of talks about a lot of things at an early age. Yeah. And so sometimes I asked the kids, particularly my teenagers, like, you know, how do you guys feel about the fact that we’re not at a church and all of that?
And they just like, well, whatever. In fact, my, my oldest was. Asked at school. So his previous school had a lot of very religious students because it’s a charter homeschool situation, lots and lots of very religious students, which makes that reason homeschool. And a lot of the kids were shocked that he wasn’t Christian and they were like, well, how will you know what’s good from bad and my oldest was like, if you need a God to tell you that stuff like murder and r*pe is bad. I’m sorry. There’s not a lot I can do to help you. He’s like, who needs a moral authority to tell you that killing somebody else is wrong.
I was like, [00:32:00] well. Not everybody forms their ideas about morality or justice in the same kind of way that you did. For a lot of evangelicals, I think, in particular, you’re told that you are innately awful and sinful and horrible, and you needed God to tell you that all of the things that are in your heart are wrong so that you can be reformed.
Yeah. Right? It’s such a huge part of a lot of evangelicalism. And , I think it really divorces us from, , even empathy, we’re not allowed to feel empathy for people who are considered sinners.
Virginia: That’s actually the primary reason why I think I stayed a Christian nominally for so long.
Even now I struggle with it. I don’t know that I actually came up with a reasonable solution. I couldn’t figure out how we could value people [00:33:00] without a God saying you’re valuable. Because. Oh,
Stella: fascinating.
Okay.
Okay.
Virginia: Because. Not because I don’t think people are valuable.
Stella: Right. But we’re made in the image of God. That’s like. No, not even that.
Virginia: No.
Stella: Okay.
Virginia: It is purely a logical argument that I have problems with. Which is. The problem of relativism. I think that people are valuable regardless of whether God says you’re valuable or not, but someone else does not believe that. So who’s right, there is no governing authority.
So me telling you this person has value. Whether they’re gay or not or color of their skin, choose, choose your thing that someone,, is ostracized for, right? Or told they’re a sinner for. They’ll be like, well, on whose authority do you say this? Who told me? You know, it’s like, mine.
And I’ll say mine. But then they’ll say like, well, but my authority says they’re not.
Stella: I [00:34:00] guess your authority sucks. Well, yeah. Die mad about it. Right, but then
Virginia: like, there’s no, it’s not neat, right? I think the reason why it was difficult for me, is because, what Christianity served for me, believing in a God, is that it’s neat.
Moral certainty. Yeah, it’s, it’s like, well, God said this.
Stella: There is a lot of comfort to be found in moral certainty where you’re like, I know that I am redeemed. I know that I am going to heaven after all this and that I was chosen by God. It feels, you feel safe in a world where horrific things can happen and it gives context to your suffering.
Which is what I’ve told people for a long time. I tell people all the time that I think Koreans in particular tend to be , I mean, we’re not evangelical. There’s a lot of different religious strains in Korea, but [00:35:00] I think that Christianity is very popular in Korea because it gave context to our suffering.
In a way that was acceptable, when you look at Confucianism, and then you look at certain Christian values, it’s real easy to just shift from one to the other, like, patriarchal, we love it. Hierarchical. Yeah, no, that’s but, but it gives context, it gives reason for being and it gives reason for why life is not perfect.
Virginia: Yeah, but then also, that very same reasoning is also why I could not believe it anymore. Because the problem of, the problem of theodicy cannot be solved by theophany. which is how Job solves it, right? Job says, how can God be good in the midst of all the suffering? And then God never answers him.
God just shows up and overpowers him with his, like, hugeness. [00:36:00] And Job’s like, okay. You win, you’re God, everything you do is just. And for some people, that’s enough. It was enough for a long time for me. And then it was not sufficient. Because then, all it is, is God is just kind of like, an abusive parent.
Stella: And I was like,
Virginia: If God is this moral authority, because there’s no point in believing God or trusting God when they say that you’re worthy, if they’re not good. If a shitty God tells you you’re worthy. Thanks? I guess? What is that worth? Yeah. Right? But I cannot accept a God that is all knowing, all good, all powerful. And like.
Stella: And shit like slavery happens. G*za [00:37:00] right. Right now. A hundred percent. That’s it’s really interesting to hear from people who are like, the gen0cide in Palestine is what convinces me that God exists.
It’s brought me back to my faith and I’m like, Oh yeah, there’s a lot of people who are, I think it’s because there’s this desire to appeal to a higher power because we are so powerless in the face of institutions that want to destroy us, that want to exterminate us,
like there’s literally nothing you or I can effectively do about the gen0cide in Palestine. It’s deeply frustrating. It’s traumatizing to watch and I’m sure it’s many times more traumatizing to experience, right. , but like of course. But it’s so traumatizing that even the act of witnessing it is, is horrifying.
Is yeah. It’s difficult. It’s hard. Right. Survivor’s guilt. And so I think for some people believing that there is someone that can redeem all of this. [00:38:00] Is way more comforting than believing that that’s it. That’s the end. We’re shitty to each other and people die and that’s as far as things go.
Virginia: Yeah.
Stella: It’s real fucking bleak.
Virginia: Yeah, you know, I get that, right? . So ultimately, whatever helps you survive, ? When I was younger, I would be like, you guys are such sellouts.
Stella: It’s, that’s, that’s youth, right? Right. Very binary way of thinking. Very, very youth.
Virginia: Right. But as soon as I had a baby. As
Stella: soon as that. It’s shocking how having a child changes you.
Virginia: I was like, you know what? I will do whatever you want. You just keep these children safe.
Or I will do whatever so that I will stay alive to keep them alive, principals are great, but you know what’s better?
Stella: Living. You know, what’s [00:39:00] also interesting about parenting is I think that’s one of the things that really challenged my view of god as a parent,
in my efforts to be a good parent, in my desire to care for them, I think some people would find god in that, , where they would be like, this is how god loves me. But it became so difficult to reconcile this idea of god as a parent. While watching the kind of suffering that was happening and thinking about the kind of suffering that has happened in the past that has never been answered that hasn’t ever been fixed and people will say like well at the end when we’re all in heaven when and I’m like that’s you you want to wait for the end of eternity for a modicum of justice for people to recognize this was wrong
as a parent, I would be like, fuck everybody’s rules. You’re not making my baby suffer for no reason. Sorry, that’s not happening. And I think that people would say, well, god is [00:40:00] grieving and mourning with us. And I’m like, so that’s not a lot of consolation. No. It’s really not.
Virginia: Jesus wept? Fuck you. Yeah. Fuck. You.
Stella: I feel, I feel bad for all of our listeners who may be religious, who may be evangelical. Sorry, friends.
Virginia: I’m not really feeling that sorry at the moment. If I met you in person, I would feel bad. Yes. Yes. Recording this podcast, I don’t feel bad. And I’m sorry, that’s just the way the cookie crumbles.
Blame it on god. God will forgive me. Oh, I’m a terrible person.
Stella: What’s funny is that I am literally a board member and treasurer of a progressive Christian non profit and they know, everybody knows, my views on Christianity. This is not a secret to the people that I work with.
Virginia: But don’t you think it keeps them honest?
Stella: It [00:41:00] does. I mean And I, I think we’re really glad that all of our progressive clergy are pretty understanding of the fact that we have a lot of former evangelicals. I’m actually really jealous of people who got to grow up in a progressive faith tradition.
Virginia: Mm, I would probably still be Christian.
Stella: Yeah, like how nice must it be to not have a tainted religion,?
Like how great is it? And I’m progressive faith of like any, any tradition, like Buddhist, Muslim, Christian, Jewish, like whatever. Sikh, there’s so many. And there are other people will be like, you really think they’re progressive? It’s like, yes, there are progressive faith traditions in most religions.
Virginia: Yeah, I’m sure there are.
Why wouldn’t there be? Right?
Stella: But you know what? Progressive Christianity was like not known to me until I left evangelicalism. [00:42:00] I literally did not know that that was a legitimate option until I basically left the cult.
Virginia: So people used to warn me about InterVarsity.
Stella: That it was too cult like?
Virginia: Christians would say like, they’re not, that InterVarsity was not really a Christian organization because they were too progressive, which is hilarious because InterVarsity.
Not really that progressive but at the time it felt incredibly transgressive when I joined it and when I was part of it, because, and the hilarious thing to me is that InterVarsity is where I learned about justice in religion. I’m not saying that I wasn’t interested in justice. I think I’ve always been that type of person. I’m a very big fair person. And as crazy as my parents are they instilled from the very start that people, all people are equal and that people deserve fairness, right?
But [00:43:00] application wise is different, because it doesn’t take into context, like. Systems. Or understanding that other people come from different systems or like the system has fucked over other people, right? Like it’s a very individualistic type of fairness, Maybe it’s fair but not equitable.
Mm hmm
slightly different. So I Really do think my parents instilled that value They just probably did not expect it To be that formative.
What’s most ironic to me, I think, is that it is in the application, in my absolute belief that God is good.
And God is loving of everybody that ultimately, and pursuing that and believing that and applying that, which is what ultimately led me to leave this faith, because it was so obviously not true.
Stella: So, I don’t know if I’ve talked about this on the podcast, [00:44:00] I don’t think I have, but when I was in my master’s program for marital family therapy, it was actually a Christian program.
I was at a seminary for quite a bit of it, and one of the requirements is theology classes, so we, I took quite a few theology courses alongside, , my therapy courses. And I would say. That I’m not surprised that for a lot of people, seminary is something that actually breaks their faith.
Virginia: I mean, I 100 percent believe it.
Stella: When you really get into the details, when you start questioning some things that you were taught to believe that you realize are not true anymore. But now you have this fancy master’s degree that says you can be a pastor. I know a few pastors. Who at this point are like, I’m not Christian anymore, but this is my occupation, which sucks, which sucks.
But that’s their job. [00:45:00] Yeah,
Virginia: that’s actually very amusing to me. But painful. I mean that because it’s not my life, right? But like
Wow, isn’t that the ultimate womp womp? Oh, wow. That sucks.
Stella: I mean, they could leave the job if they wanted to. I’m sure. But they’re not in a place right now, I think, to, to do so.
Virginia: That’s why I really admire people like Michael Campos. Mm. Who’s like,
I love him so much.
He’s so smart. And his brain is so good. And he’s so And like, his theology is so good.
Stella: I love progressive theologians.
Virginia: Yeah. And I’m just like,
I love you so much. Yes.
I think those are really the people that lead me to believe it’s possible. to be Christian and not horrible. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. [00:46:00] Right?
Like all the progressive clergy in my life, all the progressive theologians, not that I know a lot of them, but the ones that I do know. Right, right. It’s like, oh, yes, they’re the big thinkers. They’re the big viewers. They’re the people that make me want to believe that it’s possible. But I don’t know that I would ever go back.
I don’t. I don’t think I could. I used to think
that I wouldn’t go back, but I’m telling you, This has to be the next episode. I think we’ve discussed this before, but who do you pray to? Who do you pray to when things go to shit? and does it matter? You know, if you have children, and when they’re small and tiny, they court death.
All the time. All the time. I mean, if you think about your life and all the near misses.
Stella: No real self preservation skills.
Virginia: None. None. All evolutionary dead ends.
Stella: It’s interesting that you bring up prayer because I think that was one of the things I was really known for. When I was very active [00:47:00] in church that was a really big thing for me.
It was really, really meaningful and people were often like, Oh, I just feel so encouraged. I feel very grounded in God when I hear you pray. And so it’s a weird feeling to know that that’s absolutely not a part of my life anymore. Mm hmm. And sometimes I miss it.
Sometimes I’m like, it would be nice to be praying right now. It would be nice to have someone to call out to but I don’t know that I believe that that’s a thing. Yeah. And there are different types of prayers, I know some people who are like, yeah, we don’t do prayers the way that evangelicals do prayers.
Mm, it’s just a different thing. There are a lot of ways to pray.
Virginia: There are. Yeah
Stella: Well, Brazn Nation, thank you for joining us on our chaotic journey. It’s pretty clear that religion was a really formative part of both of our identities, and I [00:48:00] look forward to getting to talk about this and we’d love to know what you all think about religion, and your relationships with it, and your thoughts, so.
Virginia: Oh, yes, especially if you’re of, of different religious faiths.
Yes.
We would love to hear from you, and also, maybe have you as a guest. Not, not to like, exoticize you, but , to have a good
discussion.
Stella: You know what’s cool is that like, in the Jewish faith, it’s really normal to argue with God.
Virginia: Oh, like Jacob?
Stella: Yeah, it’s like a court or something, that’s like, you know. Having disagreements with the Lord is not unheard of. Maybe I’m wrong about that. We probably Anyway! Anyway. That was the episode, Brazn Nation. Thanks for everything! I’m your co host, Stella.
Virginia: And I’m your co host, Virginia. Bye! We did it!
[00:49:00] Yay!
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